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Futaba-RC . A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings

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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Logo 10 ideal motor and lipo config ???
 
 
Larry
Senior Heliman
Location: SE Florida

Hey all,

I am finally going to get my logo 10 3d flying.. it is just about complete..

question is with everyone playing with different motors and lipo packs.. what is the preferred setup these days ?? normal voltage or high?? what motor ??? what battery setup..??

Also I would like the lipo back to fit nicely in the machine .. Im not sure how people are mounting the different lipo combinations
04-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

I'm building a Logo 10 3D too so I'm in a similar situation. Right now, I'm thinking Hacker B50-16XL with 8s2p Lipos based on experiments of some of the fellas on RCGroups.

The new 2100 10C TP cells are narrower and will fit in easily.

Rob
04-09-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Larry
Senior Heliman
Location: SE Florida

i actually have an older b50 16xl that a pinion was stuck on the shaft from a while ago.

how much does hacker usually charge to replace the shaft and overhaul the motor ?

If this config works then i can use what i have...
04-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

How lucky that you have the right motor! You wouldn't happen to have the right pinion stuck on it too?

I don't know anything about Hacker's repair facilities.

Rob
04-09-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Larry
Senior Heliman
Location: SE Florida

I have the motor from when i did the raptor conversion about 2 years ago..

how is the power with this setup vs the traditional 4s4p with 13 turn motor ??
04-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

A basic analysis would suggest the performance of the above setup would be similar to say a C50-13L on 4s4p. When I try using the basic motor equations and the published motor constants, the performance differences are slight.. However, it is claimed the RPM reduction under load is less and the peak power capability is higher with these HV setups. There is an elaborate spreadsheet ("K.C's spreadsheet") that calculates all this.

One thing that is intuitive for me is there would be less current in the power wiring so very slightly lower losses there. Also, the lower Kv motors are usually larger in length and/or diameter and would be better able to dissipate heat. The additional copper/iron in a larger motor may also be contributing to the claimed improved performance.

In a nutshelll, the result appears to be more power, especially under higher loads.

Anywho, I'm not an expert - just trying to rationalize why the performance might be better without doing the math.

Rob
04-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dee436
Heliman
Location: Preston UK

I have used the kc spreadsheet only thing is it doesn't seem to take the size of pinion into account or at least it doesnt affect the current draw figures.

At the moment I use a Kontronic 600-17 + 15t pinion with 8000mah 4s4p which is ok but could do with more power.
At the end of an 8 - 10 min flight battery and esc are barely warm, motor is hotter but not to hot to burn fingers.

I am sure this setup pulls too many amps as when testing with a volt meter at hover pitch the voltage drops rapidly then recovers just as quickly when off load, would have thought the battery and esc would get hot if this was the case though.

The KC spreadsheet shows the 5s3p would be a better setup with peak current around 50 rather than 70 with the 4s4p and the 8s2p even better at around 30
04-10-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

I have used the kc spreadsheet only thing is it doesn't seem to take the size of pinion into account or at least it doesnt affect the current draw figures.

Yes, perhaps it is holding certain variables constant depending on the options you selected.

Rob
04-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Keith
Heliman
Location: Costa Mesa, CA

I am using an Aveox 36/30/2 in the Logo 10 that I am building. This looks like a great motor for the Logo and it is American made. I think it is about a 1470kv.
04-10-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

I'm not sure, Keith, but that sounds like you would use maybe a 5s or 6s pack with that motor. It is sort of half-way between a standard and HV setup.

Rob
04-10-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rocheleaud
Heliman
Location: Montreal, canada

I am testing right now with 8s2p on a logo10 3D ... the motor i use is a plettenberg outrunner 25-14 ... lot , lot ,lot of torque , a litle bit scrary !!! I used a 14 tooth pinion for it ... i also have a hacker b50 16xl that i will try just to compare ( but the pleti look so cool in there that i may delay this test ) ... but so far , all my tests showed me that HV is the way to go ... my outrunner feel cool after 10 minutes of soft flying with some hard climout . The only drawback of hight voltage is the sound of spark that it make when you connect your pack !!! only use verry good connector !!!
04-15-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

Quote 
I am testing right now with 8s2p on a logo10 3D ... the motor i use is a plettenberg outrunner 25-14 ... lot , lot ,lot of torque , a litle bit scrary !!! I used a 14 tooth pinion for it ... i also have a hacker b50 16xl that i will try just to compare ( but the pleti look so cool in there that i may delay this test ) ... but so far , all my tests showed me that HV is the way to go ... my outrunner feel cool after 10 minutes of soft flying with some hard climout . The only drawback of hight voltage is the sound of spark that it make when you connect your pack !!! only use verry good connector !!!


I too ordered a Orbit 25-14 and a Schulze 32.40k ESC to convert my Logo 10 to high voltage. Glad to hear a good report about the 25-14 motor. Icare said it is a lighter setup than a Hacker B-5016XL. I still need to order packs, since TP quit making the 8S2P's I'm going with two 4S2P 1900's in series, that's what Jason recommended when I spoke to him on the phone about packs. I was thinking of a 13 tooth, what head spead are you getting with the 14?

Rick
04-26-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

rocheleaud/Rick.

What's the Kv on the Orbit 25-14? I'm also trying an HV setup and I'm thinking of going to 9s2p and 13T with the B50-16XL which has a Kv of 986.

Rob
04-26-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rocheleaud
Heliman
Location: Montreal, canada

Ok

Since the wheather is real bad here , i did'nt have the chance to do a lot of tests . But so far , KC's spreedsheet showed me that we will need 18 pinion to run 2022 HS with this motor . Kv is 755 . It's good , outrunner like's torque . Here is the last specs from plentenberg for the 25-14

Kv=755,io=2,rm=29,weight=250g

Rickc , excuse me , my mistake , right now , i run 16 pinion ( i wrote 14 in my previous post ) and the headspeed is around 1700 . A litle low for 3d but real nice for me ( i am comming from the Corona world , i am no near 3d pilot !!! ) . I have 18 on the way and a 20 at home that i might test tonight just for the fun of it . KC's spreedsheet showed we that with the 20 , i will have 235 w/lb of peek power ( bat current will be 26 amps ) ... that is really hawesome , but i will push my Thunder power gen1 to their limit (4000mh x 6=24 amps ) . Time to order Gen2 . RPM drop from hover to full power is only 119 rpm ( base on the spreedsheet ) . And the heli weight only 5 pounds !!!
04-26-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

rocheleaud

Did you get the Orbit from Icare?

Interesting. I wonder if I made a mistake. The Hacker numbers are phenomenal. The RPM drop at hover for the 16XL with 9s2p is 48, head speed is 2000+ and the efficiency is way up around 88%.

I think I entered appropriate values for heli weight, rotor dia, etc., etc. I did use the G2 TP1900s which help.

Rob
04-26-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

Thanks for the info, I have my Orbit 25-14 / f32-40k combo on its way from icare. Looks like I'll have to order some pinions. I was thinking the KV was higher.

Rick
04-26-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rocheleaud
Heliman
Location: Montreal, canada

Yep , i got it from Icare ( i live in Montreal , so , it's fun to see those thing before actually put the money on the table ) . I wanted the 16xl ( based on experiment of Gary on ezone ) but after seeing both motor ( the 16 xl is real hugues and heavy for the logo 10, it will be a better fit for the L20, or L16 ) , i selected the orbit ... 100 g less for the same performance ( on KC's spreedsheet) . And i liked the idea of an outrunner on a helicopter . Gary wrote that with the 16xl , the frame flex under load . I know that is setup is not stock , so , maybe it's not because of the motor .

I am testing right now with a 20 tooth pinion ( it will need 18 ) and run 76% governor ( i know , iknow , it's not optimal ) ... The result is ... scary !!! the headspeed is 2000 rpm ( at 100% gov , it was 2300) , and no bogging at all . I flew for 7 minutes in a parc . Bring it back home because with that kind of HS , i don't like to be in a park . I am not a 3d pilot , so , i can't comment on that , but it got potential !!! i will be able to learn with that machine !!! i have some video that i will try to post if i can find the place to put them .

Etienne ( the guy at Icare) is looking for other good combination for HV setup. There is other winding comming out from other manufacturer that will be able to acomodate that ( i think that they realised that one big advantage in LiPo is not only weight , but voltage !!!) ...my LoGo 10 is now a logo 30 !!! hehehe

I wish i was a better pilot !!! i am not sure i can push this setup to his limit ( but it sure help when you are in toubles ) ...
04-27-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rscamp
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

Sounds good, rocheleaud.

Another advantage of your motor is with the larger pinion, you are less likely to strip the main gear.

I think with the Hacker there is less RPM drop (more torque) but the Orbit sounds better in all other respects. I also worry about flex with the tall and heavy Hacker. I might add a stiffening plate (more weight!) under the motor mount so it doesn't flex as much from the coriolis forces that result from quick rotations on axis. These can cause the gear mesh to change - both in clearance and in mesh angle.

I have purchased from Etienne several times. I got the Tango in my Logo 20 from Icare, for example.

Continued good luck with your heli!

Rob
04-27-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

I'm also going with the carbon frames , cnc motor plate and main bearing block for the Logo from novaman, the oh girl is getting a face lift. Flexing should not be a problem. I ordered a 18 tooth this evening from FXAero, my orbit should have shipped today.

Rick
04-28-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Larry
Senior Heliman
Location: SE Florida

any additional updates on these motors ??

I would like to make my purchasing decision this weekend... im tired of looking at my logo 10 lonely on the bench with no motor....


Larry
04-30-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Logo 10 ideal motor and lipo config ???
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