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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > How much pitch can you squeeze out of a 50

Smokinjo
Senior Heliman
Location: Memphis TN

Anyone know how much pitch you can squeeze out of a Raptor 50. I would like to get +13to14 and -12 atleast. I see where you can grind away at the frame a bit to get more throw. Whats the max anyone here has got and how is your servo positioned in the tray as well as what collective arm are you using (ie aftermarket upgrade or plastic with which hole (closest to the head or farthest).

Thanks for any suggestions. Need more pitch for this os 50

04-29-2002 Over year old.

HelicopterJohn
Key Veteran
Location: Seffner, Florida (Just East of Tampa, Florida)

More Pitch

SmokinJo,

I know what you mean. That OS50 Engine is a Power House. I believe it would take 15 degrees with no problem. Mine already climbs like a moon rocket with 12 degrees of pitch and the motor is loafing. Mine weighs 7 pounds 7 ounces according to gram scales provided by several of our members. We may be reaching the point of part failure with this much power on this machine. I did the blade flip and installed a metal swash plate and mine is very close to binding on the main shaft at both the top and bottom maximum throw positions.

I guess you could have a new main shaft made about a 1/4 inch or so longer to give room for more swash plate travel.

Let me know if you figure out how to get more travel and if it holds together after you get it.

P.S. How would your rate the Raptor OS50 in power to weight ratio and vertical acceleration.

OC Bob's Gathering #2 was a Premiere Event. Pictures in my Gallery

04-29-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Why would you want to pull more than 12 degrees of pitch? Won't the blades start stalling or become more inefficent at this point?

Why don't you slap on some bigger blades?

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington

04-29-2002 Over year old.

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HelicopterJohn
Key Veteran
Location: Seffner, Florida (Just East of Tampa, Florida)

Bigger Blades

Secret Squirrel,

Do you mean longer???? There is already a (problem - I mean they are pretty close.) with the main blade to tail blade clearance on the Raptor 50. If you put on much longer blades they will hit the tail blades unless I have measured incorrectly depending on which tail blades you are running.

OC Bob's Gathering #2 was a Premiere Event. Pictures in my Gallery

04-29-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Yeah sorry, that's what I meant, longer blades.
I'm running +10 on my Voyager 50 (using 600 blades) and it doesn't bog down and there is plenty of potential there for more, but with another 6 degrees of cyclic pitch, I don't want to stall out the blades etc.

With +14 degrees, there's the potential to get a total of 20 degrees pitch which surely can't be efficient? I'm not sure, I'm not an expert in these things. Anyone got any ideas?

Si

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Simon Lockington

04-29-2002 Over year old.

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Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Try 600 WIDE V-blades or 620s They do a far job of soaking up that extra energy.

Oh if you Raptor is to stubby for the 620's you might want to look at getting a Sceadu. It can handle them.

I couldn't resist

Ken B

04-29-2002 Over year old.

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Smokinjo
Senior Heliman
Location: Memphis TN

Ok
After a few mods I got +12 on the top and -12 on the bottom. No binding that I can see on the bench in either direction. We will see if it handles it or blows up tommorrow

04-29-2002 Over year old.

charly
Heliman
Location: xenia, ohio

I also do not belong in the expert class either

but why can't we use say a longer boom and maybe a belt from a 60, then install longer blades? I'm not sure what other mfg's have belt driven units which could be adapted...just a thought

charly

04-29-2002 Over year old.

HelicopterJohn
Key Veteran
Location: Seffner, Florida (Just East of Tampa, Florida)

Longer Blades

Charly,

Good thought, Maybe longer or wider cord/more efficient blades.

Also, a friend on mine recommended that I change the gearing on the tail rotor from a 2mm 9 groove pulley to a 2mm 8 groove pulley to give the tail more authority. This would speed up the tail rotor RPM and may not require the tail rotor blades to be as long.

He also told me the timing pulley stock to machine one is available at Stock Drive Products/Sterling Industries http://www.sdp-si.com I ordered a free set of their catalogs inch/metric. I was still unable to find the 8 groove pulley stock and am waiting for their customer service department to respond with a correct part number. This would require boring an accurate center hole for the tail rotor shaft and machining pulley flanges for both sides of the new pulley.

Stock Drive Products also sells 2mm timing belts. They may also have the correct length/width belt to extend the tail boom.

OC Bob's Gathering #2 was a Premiere Event. Pictures in my Gallery

04-29-2002 Over year old.

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HelicopterJohn
Key Veteran
Location: Seffner, Florida (Just East of Tampa, Florida)

PITCH RANGE

volkul,

Quote "Oh if you Raptor is to stubby for the 620's you might want to look at getting a Sceadu. It can handle them. I couldn't resist"

What kind of pitch range are you able to accomodate and effectively use on the Sceadu using a OS50?????

My friend flies a Sceadu with an OS50. I am not sure what pitch range he uses, but would be interested to see what the maximum pitch range you or any of your friends are using.

Thanks for any information you can provide.

P.S. What is the total flying weight on the Sceadu 50 less fuel. My Raptor 50 weighs 7 pounds 7 ounces. Maybe the Raptors are too heavy and thats why we need so much pitch?

OC Bob's Gathering #2 was a Premiere Event. Pictures in my Gallery

04-29-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

With the 45/10 gearing you really need to be careful and measure your head speed, you might be surprised. With 600 Hurricane blades on 15% CP and 1900 RPM + 12 starts to slow the rotor until the(upward/Forward) speed "catches up" I think if you go much over that with +-7 deg or so cyclic you will stall the blades at full collective full cyclic 4-5 G maneuver.

04-29-2002 Over year old.

2000se
Senior Heliman
Location: Charlotte, NC

+12 and -10....motor still wants more...

+12 and -10....motor still wants more...

04-29-2002 Over year old.

Heli-Driver
Elite Veteran
Location: Arlington, TX

Excessive pitch

Like squirrel says, the blades stall above 12 degrees.... why would you want more pitch?

Also what happens when you jam the cyclic in the corner at 14 degrees with 6-7 degrees of cyclic on top of that? Something is going to bind.

I suggest putting a governor on and running a higher headspeed and keeping the pitch you have.

If you wind the headspeed up you won't be able to pull as much pitch as you would at a slower headspeed.

I've measured the Raptor 50 boom and 600mm is all you can run on the mains, there just isn't room for 620's unless you want to play with tail/main blade strikes.

The Sceadu boom is about 1-1/2 inches longer than the Raptor 50 boom and it weighs about the same as a Raptor. (I've owned both)

I agree the wider chord blades would benefit the 50 motor.

Raymond

Predator Gasser SE/231 X 2
Century Helicopters

04-30-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Heli-Driver
Elite Veteran
Location: Arlington, TX

oops, I hit the back button and it duped the post... sorry!

Raymond

Predator Gasser SE/231 X 2
Century Helicopters

04-30-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

charly
Heliman
Location: xenia, ohio

Raptordriver...
What do you mean by winding up the hs and not being able to pull as much pitch vs a slow hs?
Right now I'm using a gov(just learning how to use it) and have idl2 set at 1750 and -10 to +10 and she does very well..actually I had it set to 1850 /-10 to +11.5 at first and after lowering, it didn't seem as squirely..no pun intended.. Squirel

charly

04-30-2002 Over year old.

Heli-Driver
Elite Veteran
Location: Arlington, TX

Hey Charly,

What I mean by winding the head up is as you increase the headspeed, eventually it will load the motor at a given pitch.

This means you can pull more pitch at a lower headspeed and less pitch at a higher headspeed.

The higher headspeed will make it more "squirrelly" around hover but it also makes it more aerobatic, roll rates and flip rates improve as does collective and tail rotor response.

Running a lower headspeed will smooth out a hover but you pay for it in flight performance.

1750 RPM with an 8.5 ratio means your motor is only turning 14,875 RPM. Peak power is closer to 16,000 RPM. To reach 16,000 RPM at the motor you need to have a headspeed of 1882 RPM and you should be at maximum power.

You may consider programming 1500 in normal flight mode, 1750 in idleup1 and 1850 in idleup 2. This way you get docile handling at hover in normal mode, a smooth ride in idleup1 one and idleup 2 for tearing holes in the sky. Switch in and out of flight modes as needed.

Raymond

Predator Gasser SE/231 X 2
Century Helicopters

04-30-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

charly
Heliman
Location: xenia, ohio

Thanks, RaptorDriver.
I'll probably increase the hs soon. I'm just now starting to like the raptor50 again, after installing a slipper. The reason is because it totally eliminated the wah thing and now it's a pure joy to fly

. Actually thats the way Auger had it setup (1550,1600,1850)a few months ago but the wahs struck again and I messed all my curves up trying to fix it. As soon as I can, I'll put some serious flite time in I'll do some gv-1 changing.

charly

04-30-2002 Over year old.

Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

2000se

Could it be that you are not getting the pitch you think you are?

04-30-2002 Over year old.

Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

When I ordered my Voyager, I got the upgrade pinion to make a ratio of 8.8:1. My theory was to instead of having more than 10 degrees pitch, to convert that extra power from the engine into head speed cause I wanted to do 3D with it.
At first it was a bit of a dog, but once we got the Muscle Pipe tuned, it's now pulling 10 degrees with ease at approximately 1900 rpm (estimate based upon gear ratio times optimal engine RPM). My machine rolls much much faster than my mate's standard Voyager with the 9.something:1 ratio, but he's pulling more pitch.

And it's not too 'squirrely'

around the hover once you put a little expo in.

Si

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Simon Lockington

04-30-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Stet
Elite Veteran
Location: Long Beach CA

-10 to +14?

As far as I have been able to tweak mine, most I could get was -9.5 to +9.5. Understand that these values allow me to go to the corners on my cyclic at full up and down. If you use shaft collars between the two bearings instead of on top of the top mainshaft bearing you might be able to get a bit more. I would definately like to run +/-10 with full cyclic in the corners and would like even more to get +12 or more on top of that for throttle hold mode to squeeze the last inch out of an auto.

So if you are honestly getting +/-10 or more, please let me know how much (degrees on the swashplate) you are getting for your full aileron and full elevator throws, not binding when 100% combined at full up and full down. The problem is at full down when the swash is up against the collar. FYI I am using the Quick UK swash and the cone top shaped upper collar. I'd like to switch to the interior collars, but I have to modify the bearing holders in the frames so the collars can clear them. That is one of the mods I'm doing on my next build. If you can get rid of the shaft collar at the top, you will definately improve things. But remember if you ever want to pull the shaft you will have to split the frames and tear down the whole durn thang.

04-30-2002 Over year old.

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > How much pitch can you squeeze out of a 50

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