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CanoMod . Futaba-RC . A Main Hobbies

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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > 6 Stitiches in Hand
 
 
RotorX
Key Veteran
Location: London

Toggle,

spot on - its not worth the risk, if yer dont know what you are doing - get some help......
08-09-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Thanatos
Heliman
Location: Sault Sainte Marie, Mi. USA

I do pretty much live in Timbuktu so I was fortunate that there was one person here that has been flying for a while willing to help me with my hawk 30. I am a newb and have no rc experience whatever so I joined ama and the local club was referred to the only person in the region with heli experience. When I bought my hawk I also purchased a hummingbird cp pro following the theory that A) it was a little less dangerous B) I could fly in my barn under controlled conditions until I could hover it and C) If i could fly something this light and sensitive then I could probably fly anything. I have also ordered a sim but there are too many things that cannot be replicated with a sim so I hope to do the same with that as was my intention with the hummingbird (without the expense of almost constant crashes). When I purchased the birds I went to a hobby shop in florida where I told the guy that I knew nothing whatever so he set me up with a fairly safe and stable setup with some extra features to simplify my life ie. remote glo connector, header tank and boom mounted anti torque servo mount. The temptation was strong to hurry things up by tying down the heli but I do understand basic aerodynamics and realized that it would probably be bad. That is when I made a friend in the club that was happy to be able to have someone else to fly with so he is helping me setup and tune so I can hopefully not hurt myself or damage my equipment too badly. I guess the long and short of it is seek advice and help and maybe I won't get hurt too badly.
08-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ARRietz
Heliman
Location: Dayton, OH

Stet is right on

Quote 
I don't care how well it is balanced, you are dealing with oscillating frequencies in a multiple spring-mass-damper system. There is no constant steady state condition.


This is probably the biggest danger in trying to tie down a system that is meant to have full range of motion. EVERY heli will have a unique set of harmonics, and no matter what you do you can hit resonance by constraining it. Some say, put it on the grass and it will dampen it out, but you still aren't eliminating vibration. On the contrary, by dampening, you may bring it that much closer to a resonant frequency! Same goes for fully securing by the frame, it doesn't matter, it will STILL resonate at a certain speed, and you have no way of knowing what that is.

I'm an aerospace engineering student, and have seen the effects of harmonics first hand. I've spent the summer rebuilding a wind tunnel fan that hit a resonant frequency... At 7.5 feet in diameter and 1200 RPM, the blade tips are going about 400 mph. That's enough to punch the wood blades through 1/4" thick steel. Luckily, there's safety barriers in place.

Mumbo, perhaps... Jumbo, perhaps not!
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
lakespinner2
Veteran
Location: north carolina

I'm repairing my raptor 50 now as a result of a runup test whilst weighted down with two cement blocks and a 2 by 4 run thru the skids.

I hadn't used it for months and I wanted to make sure it ran ok before taking it up. Well, all was going well, I ran a half tank thru it and I was about to stop the test. About that time the extra vibration (and my ignorance, I didn't have the canopy on, or enough rubber bands I suppose) caused the batteries to wiggle out of their nest and they fell to the ground and disconnected.

I lost all control, the throttle went wide open. All I could do was hide and pray. The rotor disk was going all over the place at full throttle. I was afraid it was going to rip free of the skids or wiggle out from under 60 pounds of concrete, it was SCARY! Finally the disk struck the boom which shattered the wooden blades but the engine kept running for awhile. It finally stopped after working up a good smoke and stench. As gut-wrenching as it was watching the self-destruction, there was no way anyone was going near it. Might as well jump head-first into a blender. No one was hurt but I'm ordering a head loader right away. It looked pitiful but now as I'm checking it out, I'm surprised to see how little is damaged. I thought about chucking the whole thing but now I'm glad I didn't. I let it rest for two months while I steamed, but I think it will live again. Be vewwwy careful!
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
lanceTheMan
Heliman
Location: San Jose, CA

Even after reading the horror stories, I would be tempted to
strap my Voyager E down when I turn it on for the first time
with the motor connected, but only to verify the motor doesn't
immediately jump to full throttle. I wouldn't (intentionally) be ramping
the ESC up to 100% with the heli clamped down, but if for some
reason, it did go to 100%, I'd rather take the *chance* of injury over
the certainty of the heli vaulting into low earth orbit in that case.
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Tomas Ahl
Senior Heliman
Location: Linköping, Sweden

lanceTheMan, Why don't you simply unmount the motor completely and hook it up to your ESC for this test? Mount it to something so that it doesn't jump around all over the place is all I think is necessary. Then you can disconnect the motor very quickly if it isn't behaving as expected. I also don't think the motor will start out reving on max if the ESC is given wrong throttle signal in the beginning, I think the ESC will refuse to enable the motor until it has detected a throttle-low situation but this might not be the case for all ESCs.
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
GroundPounder
Veteran
Location: South Africa, Cape Town

Well, I'm new to this, but this was my experience of tie-ing the heli down.
Built my Raptor 50, threadlock on all metal parts.
Tie it down on a wooden table, start the motor.
All's well, until I increase the motor rpm, everything starts to vibrate like hell. ( Hey, I'm used to planks!)
Ok, so maybe something is out of whack, although I was under the impression that I had setup the blades and all properly.
I decide to wait until the weekend, take it out to the local club, have someone check it out.
I arrive early at the field early, setup table, tie heli down, run it, still vibrating.
A guy comes over to me, tells me this is the worst thing I can do, because this way unnatural resonances build up.
Turns out he's a boffin.
We take the Rappy off the table, he checks it out, starts it, lift it into a hover, what do you know, no more vibration.
Only problem is fixed by one turn on the blade link to get the tracking perfect.
I procede to attempt to hover, half a tank later, the engine dies, and on attempting to restart it, I find the hex collar is loose, one grubscrew gone, and the engine stopped due to a loose muffler.
My friendly boffin tells me this damage was done in just two tanks of having the heli unnaturally fixed to a rigid object.
I'm in the mechanical profession, so I know some about locktite and all.
I redo all the loose parts with the same locktite, also found the engine mounts loose and the tail rotor linkage( whow, that could have been fun)

Bottom line, after about ten tanks now, nothing has come loose, other than the muffler, I hear that is a fairly common problem.

I still get some vibration as the engine spools up, once it gets flying that goes away.

GroundPounder
09-26-2004 Over year old.
 
 
GroundPounder
Veteran
Location: South Africa, Cape Town

I'm going to regret this post one day....
Some of these posts cast serious doubt on the suitability of the postees to propagate the human species.
RC helis are chainsaws......without the safety features!
And don't forget the lowly tail rotor, it may not pack the same oomph, but it is going 8 times faster than the mains.

GroundPounder
09-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Cherokeepilot
Heliman
Location: Jacksonville Florida

Concerning Ray's Heli Book

I own a copy and love it. I refer back to it all the time. It has a wealth of information in it for novices and intermediates.

I do think strapping a heli on a 6 foot ladder just above your head is a bit dangerous now. I actually did it when I kept having problems with my original OS50. I couldnt get that dang motor to run worth the crap. And the ladder sure didnt help.

There are many "what ifs" with a ladder and a model heli that I could think about now before I try this again:

What if a part of the head failed and swung around striking you in the face...
What if the heli loosened up from the top of the ladder and tip over onto your head and shoulders...
What if the heli went full power on top of the ladder and caused the ladder to tip over hmmm...

I like Rays book, but sure wouldnt use a ladder again. If you are a beginner I would recommend finding help or drive somewhere where a club is located.
01-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
kaptkaos
Key Veteran
Location: Miami FL

You can run a motor on a bench with an airplane prop. I used to break in car motors like this. I would just run a tank or two at various rpm ranges, never 100%. Usually at a very rich mixture. Then you mount the engine in the model\car and fly\drive it slowly at varying rpm to break in the motor fully. I dont see a need to ever run a heli on a stand, seems like a crazy thing to do. I can get a motor pretty close without bolting it to a stand. The final adj can be made with the heli securely shut down. I usually dont need to fully optimize the needle for every weekend, its not like a competition each week. I check it after each flight with my finger, right after shutting it down. If its hot, I richen it a bit and recheck next flight. pretty easy, smart and safe.

I think an experienced modeler with the proper eq would be able to perform a run on a stand, but definitely not a beginner, but again, I ask, why would you ever want to do such a thing, it really has very little value, and exceptional risk.

I am going to wear some Motocross gear whenever I am at the field from now on.

If you give a Chimp a gun, and the Chimp shoots, DONT BLAME THE CHIMP!!!!
01-11-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
reckless loony
Senior Heliman
Location: MIA

Quote 
why would you ever want to do such a thing


To set the gap on a tuned pipe.

Too quickly set correctly the carb adjustments, some people have even managed to melt their pistons by using the flying method.

To set up the throttle jockey pro governor to the desired head speed.

To check blade tracking, I have never been too fond of the idea of having the heli on the ground getting a bit lite on the skids or in the hover whilst one gets nice and close to it to check the blade tracking whilst the heli is unsecured.

To verify all the electronics are working correctly after a crash under actual running condition without the heli getting damaged in the event of a malfunction. People have lost heli’s after a crash due to damage to the electronics caused in the crash that would not show up under static conditions.
01-11-2005 Over year old.
 
 
kaptkaos
Key Veteran
Location: Miami FL

None of those seem like they are worth the risk to me....


To set the gap on a tuned pipe.

Get a Muscle Pipe and bolt it on, tuned pipes are crap anyways.


Too quickly set correctly the carb adjustments, some people have even managed to melt their pistons by using the flying method.

It would have to be running really bad fuel, on a tired old motor to melt a piston without giving telltale lean signs. You can set the needle very close, leaning to the rich side and if you dont see the nice smoke, or land it after 1 minute, then you deserve to melt a piston. I would rather melt a piston than hurt myself with a heli.


To set up the throttle jockey pro governor to the desired head speed.

I used a remote sighted tach, the HS cannot be accurately measured unless the heli is actually flying. I dont own one, but I had enough patience and self preservation instincts to wait till someone showed up with one. Constant HS is not worth a sliced back either.

To check blade tracking, I have never been too fond of the idea of having the heli on the ground getting a bit lite on the skids or in the hover whilst one gets nice and close to it to check the blade tracking whilst the heli is unsecured.

Tough one here...
Fact, you cant really set tracking right with the heli strapped to a stand, it must be flying, preferrably out of ground effect.
Problem, sometimes you do have to get a little close to the heli, but with common sense it too can be safely done. I use a buddy and focus on hovering safely while he tries to identify the blades from a safe distance. You can use a shield such a trash can lid.




To verify all the electronics are working correctly after a crash under actual running condition without the heli getting damaged in the event of a malfunction. People have lost heli’s after a crash due to damage to the electronics caused in the crash that would not show up under static conditions.

Bench check, range check, visual inspection, safely taking a test hover from a distance. No way to eliminate all risk, but you can minimize it by thinking smart. If it checks on the bench, and during hover, it should be fine, not all failures are avoidable.


Dont take it personally, but I dont think any of those reasons are worth the risk for me. Each person has to be responsible for their own personal safety and not be a risk to others.

Only you can make decisions for yourself, and hopefully you will always be safe and never have eq failure.

If you give a Chimp a gun, and the Chimp shoots, DONT BLAME THE CHIMP!!!!
01-12-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rroback
Elite Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

I got one rule, although it may be annoying, I follow it strictly. Never adjust anything beyond basic trim setting while your heli is alive, especially reversing channels. just shut it off. better safe then sorry. lucky me, I fly electric, so I just unplug it..

Rhett... I can't fly, luckily the HC Profi Can!
01-13-2005 Over year old.
 
 
reckless loony
Senior Heliman
Location: MIA

Quote 
Get a Muscle Pipe and bolt it on, tuned pipes are crap anyways.


Not been my finding. Work great for me.

Quote 
It would have to be running really bad fuel, on a tired old motor to melt a piston without giving telltale lean signs. You can set the needle very close, leaning to the rich side and if you dont see the nice smoke, or land it after 1 minute, then you deserve to melt a piston. I would rather melt a piston than hurt myself with a heli.


Those that managed to melt the piston were using new motors and fresh fuel and yes they did post here in Runryder. They basically could not tune the engine correctly with the flying method. The amount of smoke you get also depends on the fuel type used since different synthetic oils give different amount of smoke. Smoke in other words is NOT always an indication of a correctly tuned engine.

Quote 
I used a remote sighted tach, the HS cannot be accurately measured unless the heli is actually flying. I dont own one, but I had enough patience and self preservation instincts to wait till someone showed up with one. Constant HS is not worth a sliced back either.


No one here has a remote sighted tach.

Remember it is a GOVERNOR they are meant to hold the head speed regardless of rotor loading therefore you don’t need to fly the heli. The same goes for the rev max, which you just want to set the max, head rpm.

Even just setting up a throttle curve without a governor I have found that the use of the run up stand gets it pretty darn close.

I am surprised that you consider the need for a sighted tach. The way some people here setup throttle curves is to just fly the heli and set the head speed by ear.

Another method, which I have also used, is to make use of an accurate airplane tacho the one I have has an accuracy of +/- 10 rpm and can easily read the rotor at even about 2.5 m away. It also has a large display, which I can read, at a distance. Place the tacho on the ground supported by a brick so that it is pointing up at the main rotor. Have a wooded block support placed under the heli. Run the heli up engage idle up while it’s on the ground. Get head speed readings from 0 pitch to full –ve pitch. You can then mirror the throttle curve for the pitch 0 to +ve if setting up a throttle curve. You can also use this method for setting up the throttle jockey pro and rev max. The wooded block ensures the landing struts don’t break from too much thrust since it takes the thrust load.

How the hell are supposed to get a sliced back? The heli is above one’s head I can see how one could get scalped if you forgot the heli was there and one jumped up without a helmet.

Quote 
Tough one here...
Fact, you cant really set tracking right with the heli strapped to a stand, it must be flying, preferrably out of ground effect.


Being on the stand it is out of ground effect. I have to stand on a stepladder to see the rotor disk when the heli is on the stand.

Quote 
Problem, sometimes you do have to get a little close to the heli, but with common sense it too can be safely done. I use a buddy and focus on hovering safely while he tries to identify the blades from a safe distance. You can use a shield such a trash can lid.


What distance is your safe distance? Trash can lids are thin the main rotor blade will easily slice through it.

If tracking is out then it is because one blade is generating more lift over the other. I have done tracking with the heli just going light on the skids I just don’t like doing it this way. I have not seen any difference in blade tracking when the heli is in the hover or while it is light on the skids.

Quote 
Bench check, range check, visual inspection, safely taking a test hover from a distance. No way to eliminate all risk, but you can minimize it by thinking smart. If it checks on the bench, and during hover, it should be fine, not all failures are avoidable.


With a test hover if something goes wrong the heli crashes and costs you $$$ and you still may have no idea why it crashed.

I had a NEW JR 900 gyro that turned out to be faulty straight of the box. It had an intermittent fault. I used it to replace the JR 120 gyro I didn’t on this occasion bother using the run up stand.

Had the heli in the hover everything was sweet then all of a sudden the heli goes into a high speed piro. I placed the heli down whilst still piroing naturally it got dented. If had used the run up stand the gyro would have failed and I would have noticed the engine bogging and tail of the heli straining to go round and that would have been it.

Quote 
Dont take it personally, but I dont think any of those reasons are worth the risk for me. Each person has to be responsible for their own personal safety and not be a risk to others.


Well now just how risky are run up stands? People have been using them for years even back in the early 70’s GMP used to sell one. I have even seen an article in Airborne magazine about run up stands and how nice it is to have one. I myself have been using mine since 1995. Never had the heli break or bolts go loose whilst on the stand.

I noticed some posts where heli’s have broken up whilst on a run up stand presumably from ground resonance. You do get initially a fair amount of vibration when spooling up for the first time on the stand until the main blades have found their position. You reduce this time to a very short time by spooling up quickly also by ensuring that you have folded out the blades as straight as possible. Once the blades have found their position you can spool the heli up and down as much as you like without any significant vibration just the same as when you have the heli on the ground while it is in idle up with –ve pitch. You will also have higher vibration until you get the blade tracking correct if it happens to be out.

O.k. lets assume your heli is on the stand running at full power and the main rotor blade lets go because you were stupid enough to forget to put locktite on the feathering shaft bolt (e.g. Raptor). This blade due to centrifugal force will fly away from the heli it is NOT going to perform a U turn and come back at you standing under the heli. The other remaining blade will pull out the feathering shaft and also go flying off.

If a main rotor blade root was to fail that blade flies off the remaining attached main rotor blade will now bend the main shaft over and proceed to smash through the tail boom the resulting fragments due to impact force and centrifugal force will fly off you standing underneath is highly unlikely to get hit by the shrapnel since even though the main shaft is bent you are still outside the arc of rotation. Loss of the main rotor blade will allow the tail rotor to rev right up this does place at risk of being hit by a failing tail rotor. The V1 Raptors had very weak tail rotors even in normal flight people have had tail blades fly past their heads when they failed or got hit by them.

If people are that concerned about the above scenario happening they can incorporate the use of a metal deflector plate OR mesh can be built into the run up stand at the platform end of the stand. The plate can have openings in it to allow one to poke one’s hand through to make crab adjustments, etc.

Quote 
Only you can make decisions for yourself, and hopefully you will always be safe and never have eq failure.


Did you even bother to look at the link I provided? The one to Beavis’s web site showing a run up stand and his comment about having a 60 size heli throw a main rotor blade and how him standing under the heli was completely unscathed.

People have got hurt from using improvised run up stands e.g. chair, planks and rocks, workmates, etc. A chair is NOT a run up stand it is designed for sitting on and it is too low to the ground NO BLOODY way will I go crawling under a running heli.

Also some of these improvised stands could add to vibration (resonance effect) if they are too swishy just like swishy trainer undercarriage can cause the whole heli to vibrate like mad.
02-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
kaptkaos
Key Veteran
Location: Miami FL

Glad you have had success and experience with stands. I still wouldnt use one, nor recommend a newbie to use one.

If you give a Chimp a gun, and the Chimp shoots, DONT BLAME THE CHIMP!!!!
02-05-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
airdodger
Elite Veteran
Location: Johnston USA

Well the most dangerous thing you do everyday is drive your car, I don't hear everyone screaming about that, because you all accept the risk! You get in a car and drive and have no control over who is beside you or on the other side of the road, or if they are drunk or crazy mad. You bring your car to a mechanic and don't even know who fixed it or if it was done correctly and immediately go drive a two ton piece of metal at high speeds. Why don't I see everyone screaming about that. While we are on the subject, why do I see these guys running the helis at negative pitch at high rpm right next to them on videos, that's not holding a heli in place, come on get real, you think that is ok. You are worried about Ray's book, what about videos showing the guy shooting Roman Candles at a running heli or setting fuel on fire and putting it out with the helicopter. Everything we do has a risk assigned to it, are you telling me you know what part of flying a heli is safer than another when we fly by a radio signal that could be changed anytime by outside interference or a part breaking. What this guy did is akin to putting your hand in a fan on a car motor that is running. Chris
02-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Hoverdown3K
Key Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

Blahh. Glow fuel models... 'nuff said...
02-16-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

Quote 
and thats fine for pilots who are up to that skill level but some cannot even hover yet


If yu can barely hover the helicopter, maybe it would be wise for you to get a simulator first. I did 300 hours of simulator practice before trying the real thing, and believe me it helps.

Yes ok i crashed 2 times out of the 3 times ive flown... BUT one was mechanical failiure.

Not sure what the other one was down to, probably me not being used to how a helicopter will tip upside down in real life.

BUT

because of the simulator i got a good gallon out of each flight (i crashed at the end of flights) and i could hover it NO PROBLEM ATALL.

i could even do foward flight and do a nice big circle but i already know without the simualtor it would not of hovered, and in which direction it would have shot towards i dont know , and quite frankly i wouldn't like to know either.

bottom line is get a simulator like G2 or Reflex (i dont like G3 because of the sys. requirements and jumpiness) because it will save your helicopter alot.

I have to admit, my dad tried something similar. When i had my second crash, i knocked my electornics out. Rather than block the exhaust, he tried getting his finger in the helicopter to switch off the throttle (althrough as he did so the main gear ripped up and the heli went whappy again) at that point the exhaust was just blocked.

meh
03-17-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
frankg11
Veteran
Location: Bellevue, WA

I also ran G2 for hours and hours. Couldn't even hover G2 for a week of nights and crashed often for months. Every time I crashed the sim it was ooohhhhh saved another $150.00. LOL

Sim practice is good for finger memory and practice of manoeuvres.

Good Luck.
03-17-2005 Over year old.
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

just to let you know, should i have not used the simulator it would have been "3" crashes, because it builds up your responce and input when you make a wrong movement.

I did a wrong movement, with my real heli, and should i have not used the simuator before this would have happened

** wrong movement **
SQQUUEEEEEEEALLL ITS CRASHING
** fingers push harder to get it over with
CRRASH

Instead, it went like this
** wrong movement **
** thinks oops thats not right, better turn it the other way **

Helicotper saved.

i think the hovering part of helicopter flying is really easy. the bit that comes hard is when you start foward flight. This is where the simualtor becomes really handy because you learn how to turn the tail around as you tilt your helicopter to get it around corners properly and not just waiting for your tail to turn until you have it the direction you want to turn to.

meh
03-17-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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