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A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters

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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > 6 Stitiches in Hand
 
 
DeanM
Senior Heliman
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Raffy is absolutely RIGHT ON!

Ray's book is great, but the suggestion to use a ladder as a run-in/setup device with the heli tied down is very hazardous in a number of ways. Helis don't like to be tied down and all kinds of wild things can happen. The stresses imposed on the head and linkages when the fuselage cannot lift off or otherwise respond may be extreme.
05-06-2004 Over year old.
 
 
dmtekscott
Heliman
Location: Eastpointe, Michigan

Engine Tests

Raffy,
I know you said ( Do it safe and perform engine test runs by flying the heli at the flying field 10ft - 20ft away from you and not inches from you. ) and thats fine for pilots who are up to that skill level but some cannot even hover yet, I myself am only now just beginning to hover with some degree of control so I could theretically adjust in hover range but I can guarantee that I will not be doing any full throttle climbouts yet. Anyway I guess opinions vary, Thanks for your feedback, it's academic for me now anyway ( I bought my raptor used and got lucky that it was set up already and flyable ) but I'm sure I'll need to get better at the black art of tuning the engine soon enough.

Thanks again
Scott

P.S. Janek, nope I would not wear that helmet mostly because I don't have one anyway...LOL
05-06-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Jorjo
Heliman
Location: Belfast NI

Quote 
It still baffles me as to why people think strapping there heli to a fixed object is the best way to run-in a heli??? In fact a majority of heli accident related stories are down to the fact that the heli has been strapped down in one form or another......


Sal?
I'm interested to know the alternitives. I'm flying./ hovering 3 mts now and also did my initial tests on a workmate.

It seems piss plane logical for someone with little or no experience of flight to start out with a secured bird to gain critical experience in firing up without risking a take off before working up to handle a first flight.

Having set up this way myself, I'd go as far as to recomend it.
Common sense dictated that the heli be clamped by the chassis and cargo strapped by the skids and the work mate weighted to cover any posibility of a take off. beyond that, any other build issues would become just as apparent in a non fixed trial run. This also allowed me to stand well the hell away least anything be launched off in my direction.

I made a point of testing the radio system at lenght and watched for any sign of external interfearance for a full 15 mins before firing up with what I considered to be a fully flight ready heli loaded with little more than the fill of the fuel tubing for a test run (figuring that in a worst case no control senrio the fuel would be sufficent for only a few minutes running time) and worked up to having a little confidence in the machines ability to do exactly as it should in the air.
What puzzles me is the warning that a heli can't handle being strapped down and run at full power, Firstly why would you be wanting to do so with a new engine? and Secondly with a full pay load ie cam rig or Scale fuse the tolerances should be sufficant to handle this, if not I would be inclined to throw it back at the manufacturer and buy something that can (fortunatly I started out with a Gaupner and didn't encounter any such problems)

Living in Belfast as I do, I'm reasonably convinced that local company Shorts Bombardier are a fair role model since they habitually test full scale aircraft on fixed rigs. I would agree that any half baked attempt at a locked down test could be potentially disasterous, but I doubt that any testing with a heli thats free to take off could be safe in the hands of a rank beginner lacking the experience to control it once airborne. (also not every beginner has the luxuary of having experienced flyers available to help them).
My point being, that a properly secured test run must be by definition a safer introduction than risking an unplanned take off for a beginner.

However I would be happy to reconsider that view if there is merit in a logical argument against this method.

curious

Jorjo
06-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
donlynn
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealand

Gidday

I had zero chopper time , 2nd hand chopper with no books.
I had seen the clip on tv's home improvement, and a local stacking his about 5 years previous.

I figgured to go right along with Ray's too, I couldn't do the helmet though.

I'd read Ray's section on carb tuning several times to see if there was another way, nope I had to set the main needle first at close to full power.
I'd read about ground resonance from Wally Wagtendonk's heli book
so figured if it happened and I couldn't take of I had 2-3 seconds worst sernario to enjoy my helis remaining life span.

When put up against my estimate for it's life expectancy if attempted to establish the helicopter in a full power climbout, I considered the odds favour the tie down option

I too was concerned if I would destroy the heli if I kept it on the ground when it wanted to fly. I've heard stories when lads had gone on camping trips by chopper of having to leave gear behind because the chopper wouldn't take off, nopthing about chopper falling to pieces all around.

So I placed a sturdy plank throgh the skids with a concrete block on either side, all of this on 2 blocks high with a gap between to allow a little airflow past the motor, all this on a old sturdy chest of drawers.

I checked all running true, blades cog and weights balanced, distance to grip holes, paddles even, bolt secure, all several times

I hid 20 m away behind a tree behind the corner of a concrete block garage and increased the head speed slowly, over several start and stop cycles to check for loose bits.

It was really great, worked perfectly, I managed to get my 3 needle carb really close , had no engine failures due to incorrect tune.
let me play around with my throttle curve to get that within cooee, all I had was a few english books that were very sparse on any detail . I knew ca constant head speed would be good.

only other r/c needle practice I had was single needle ~2cc plank engine, way faster to adjust and learning the carb while running than spool up, wait 15 seconds + observe , spool down , adjust , repeat.

With a sturdy balanced set up I'd reccomend it.

I'd heard a second hand story about head loaders falling to pieces and destroying the chopper.

Regards Don
06-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Rotor
Key Veteran
Location: USA

The best thing that a newbie can do when performing "Anything" even slightly unusual to a helicopter is to come to RunRyder and ask the question. Over the years I have discovered that RR has many very smart and experienced heli flyers here and not sure if there is a question that can't be answered and normally in a very short time. If you would have gotten on RR and asked about "bolting" down your heli to test something out you probably would have gotten an answer with a couple of minutes telling you not to do it...Just a thought but people here have answered many questions for me and for others......fly careful....

My motto is this..Fly...Rebuild...Fly
06-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
snookfishnjoe
Veteran
Location: manatee county florida

I know what you went through, 20 stiches in the finger almost 3 weeks ago. Same thing, I was running my engine on the work bench, and wack!!!! Well I still dont have feeling from the joint on toward the nail, and i can barely move it..
06-14-2004 Over year old.
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

The run up stand is one of the absolute worst ideas that Rocket Ray ever came up with. RCM should delete that section from the book. I can't tell you about the number of clubs that actually built run up stands with chain link cages built around the stand. I remember guys strapping their machines to the ground with a 2X4 and heavy weights on the ends of the board.

I asked this question then and I'll ask it now, why don't you just fly it or get someone to help? The heli never unloads like it does in the air. The oscillation feedback that can occur will literally rip the heli into pieces. I can remember a 5 bladed rotor head on a machine that was locked on to a run up stand and blade tracking attempted. The outcome wasn't pretty.

Unless you are trying to figure horsepower with a torque table, locking down a heli isn't natural and they don't respond well to it. BTW, the peripheral surface speed of a blade diameter of 63" running at 1750 rpm is: 28,863.38251 surface per minute. Frankly, I don't need or want to get that close.

Terry
06-14-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
daz59
Senior Heliman
Location: Tokoroa, New Zealand

I bought my raptor 50 just before Christmas,
I was outside on the back lawn, had the heli started up ready to run the engine in, I had it idling away with the blades spinning slow, I was testing the radio gear left right forward back just to get a feel of the thing.
Anyway it was going back when I pushed the stick forward so I went into the radio gear to reverse the servo (now the book that I got with the radio gear said it was setup as mode 2, I was new to r/c aircraft and didn’t know that there were other modes, but it was setup as mode one) so I reversed ch3 servo thinking it would make forward forward and back back but since it was setup at mode one it made the throttle go wide open and rev the hell out of the heli with no pitch on the blade, so it must have been doing well over 2000rpm.

I panicked because I didn’t want to wreck my new toy so I got down and grabbed the tail boom until I could work out what to do, the heli tipped over whacked my right arm smashed the fiber glass blades, I thought **** I broke my heli!! Then I looked at my arms and saw a 3inch by 2inch hole in my arm, all I could see was the white tendons, my father rushed me to hospital I ended up with 18 stitches and a half cut muscle in my arm, I am very lucky I didn’t cut any tendons.

I was so stupid to do what I did, so may you all learn from my mistake.

Here is a picture I have just taken of my arm (6 months after the accident) http://www.dptimporters.com/scar.htm

Darren
06-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

Darren,

Sorry to hear about your accident. The last time I saw something that severe I was working in a machine shop and saw a young man grind a slot in his arm with a 2 inch wide ginding wheel on an OD/ID grinder. The tendons showed just like you described.

Are you still flying?

Terry
06-27-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
daz59
Senior Heliman
Location: Tokoroa, New Zealand

Hi Terry,

You know the funny thing is, when I was at the hospital all I was worried about was my helicopter, I kept asking my dad what was broken on it......

It took me about 4 weeks to get back into it, I was so scared of it after the accident!

I moved town and was not flying for 3 months, just got back into it 6 weeks ago, I am putting about 2litres of fuel through it a week, so im slowly getting better.

Darren
06-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
raptor30jenner
Heliman
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

I was also told thet the first thing I should do is buy his book ( i'm a newbie also ) One thing I was wondering is why is it not good to spool up the heli with no load on the engine? Is this just a safety factor or is it not good for the engine?
06-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Sar
Elite Veteran
Location: Kingston, NY

That's pretty harsh Darren. All I can recommend to people, no matter how tempting it is, shut the heli down before reversing a channel. I can't count the number of times I've wanted to make a radio change, but when I thought through the proccess of what would happen, shut the heli down before making the change. It's not always obvious.

--
Jon
06-27-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
brewskies
Heliman
Location: Simi Valley, Calif

Darren,

Sorry to hear about the accident. I know what you mean about the makeing sure the heli is ok. Even after I cut open my hand, I still went ahead a moved all of my gear and put it away before I went to the hospital to get sewed up. You by far had a worse accident than I did. I only hope that you will not let this ruin your hobby. In the future just think things through before you do it.

In your future, you will be able to tell newbies about the accident, and hopefully you may prevent a few. That is the only reason I started this post for myself. I have had a fair amount of critisicism, but I take it all in stride. I am taking lessons from a kid (hard for an old man) and progressing nicely. I LOVE this hobby.

Good luck and keep flying

Jeff
06-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
jscott55
Heliman
Location: Madison, WI

I've run my Raptor 70 up on a stand, there's nothing wrong with it if you're smart about it, but do NOT try to break in the engine this way.

I use it to test radio and cyclic movement while the engine/head
are rotating close to speed.

Tips:

Don't strap it by the skids alone;
Most helis are more than capable of ripping off their skids.
Find a better way, for example, use bungie cords attached
to the points where the skids attach to the frame or tie
the entire frame down some how.

Use foam noodles under the skids AND the mount
apparatus to prevent harsh vibrations; don't do it on
the concrete floor of your garage! Grass is best.

If you're running up with blades, make sure the the
blade pitch is exactly ZERO at all times. Any positive
or negative will put stress on the frame and skids.

Running without blades is OKAY; Most heads and tail
systems provide an adequate load to prevent the
engine from overspeeding, however the engine will
not truely break in unless it is stressed, and that
almost always REQUIRES hovering. Use a governor
if you have one; this should prevent overspeeding
of the head due to lack of load. Always do your first
test WITHOUT blades.

For short runs, put only as much fuel as you think
you'll be running it for. If you lose radio contact,
just let it go until it runs out, and if the servos
should go nuts hopefully the above safety precautions
will keep your heli/body intact if any stressful mechanical
situations result.

And -- most importantly -- don't go NEAR it when it
is running. Don't try to adjust needles, don't get under it,
don't pull fuel lines etc... It's not worth it. Stop the engine,
adjust, restart.

I recommend using the RotoPod for new pilots, because it will
allow you to determine if your tail rotor/gyro is setup properly
without sending the new heli into the all too common first lift
off rapid piro. Plus, you need not be a hovering expert with
it.
07-01-2004 Over year old.
 
 
reckless loony
Senior Heliman
Location: MIA

I have used a run up stand for years. I have PCM in my heli’s no way would I use PPM. The heli is supported via the skids AND through the main frame so there is no chance of it breaking free. Engine adjustments are performed quickly and effectively. I also do blade tracking whilst on the stand no way do I want to be that close to a unsecured running heli to do blade tracking. I also have wood blocks under the main frame of the heli which also allows me to run full negative pitch the blocks of coarse take the load NOT the landing struts.

How dangerous is a run up stand? Well I never had a failure on the stand but this guy has

http://www.beavisoriginal.co.uk/

(click on “heli test stand”)

including a 60 that threw a main blade and thus self destructed the safest place was to be directly under the heli.

I have seen a few articles from time to time about the use of run up stands which included some improvised DANGEROUS run up stands e.g. chair, fence post, etc and the best of the lot complete with a large warning under the photo was knees i.e. the guy is lying on his back and using his knees as a run up stand. I don’t have Ray’s book but the use of the ladder seems a bit dodgy to me. You really want a purpose built run up stand not some dodgy improvised job.
08-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
reckless loony
Senior Heliman
Location: MIA

Quote 
One thing I was wondering is why is it not good to spool up the heli with no load on the engine? Is this just a safety factor or is it not good for the engine?


Its both bad for the engine as it could end up revving too high and thus you will get a busted con rod and it is also dangerous. Had a guy here do that with a raptor 30 the tail rotor blades ripped loose from the high rpm and one narrowly missed his head.

It is also pointless since any engine adjustments done this way would be irrelevant as the engine needs to be loaded up.
08-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Stet
Elite Veteran
Location: Long Beach CA

"I've run my Raptor 70 up on a stand, there's nothing wrong with it if you're smart about it, but do NOT try to break in the engine this way. "

Enough is enough!!!

I also never had a problem, was forcefully warned which I ignored and the very next time I tried this the heli nearly exploded. the only way to be smart about it is to be 50 feet away. I see guys go under the helis and tune the engines which is absolutely insane, last time I saw this going on sure enough the heli exploded and fortunately no one was hurt. Of course the response was "gee this never happened before". Of course they looked down their nose at me when I begged them not to do it.

I don't care how well it is balanced, you are dealing with oscillating frequencies in a multiple spring-mass-damper system. There is no constant steady state condition.

I have been called names for stating what was stated to me and I too ignored. Don't F'ing tie down your hel !!!!. Sooner or later you will be converted. hopefully no one gets hurt.

Don't listen to anyone who says this is OK. They just have not been bit YET
08-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
reckless loony
Senior Heliman
Location: MIA

Quote 
Do it safe and perform engine test runs by flying the heli at the flying field 10ft - 20ft away from you and not inches from you


Why is this considered safe? There have been a number of people getting clobbered by doing just that.

http://www.heliguy.com/nexus/dangers.html

There has even been a death as reported here on Runryder and of coarse the safety forum has a few other incidences.
08-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

Ray's manual does say one thing, just in the wrong section. GET SOME HELP! If you need to have someone hover and set your pitch and mixture there are so many people who actually love doing that stuff that finding help is easy. If you live in Timbuku then maybe the heli stand is for you, but wear hockey gear.

-Aaron
08-07-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Toggle
Heliman
Location: Pasadena, CA

Nothing can substitute for some experienced help. Even if you have to drive a ways to the closest field with experienced heli pilots. It's not worth the time, money, or danger trying to learn without some guidance and help.
08-09-2004 Over year old.
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