rrTV-PHOTO   New HD TV
HOME   rrTV-PHOTO   GALLERIES   MY GALLERY   HELP-FAQ
myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 393 ONLINE 20 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER  START HERE
 
4 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ]3182 viewsPOST REPLY
Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models . CarbonXtreme

.
.
Aerial Photography and Video > any opinions for my mount????
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

hallo again guys. finnaly my mount is inda house
any opinios tips or whatever would be helpfull!!!
it hasn't finished yet but there is a general idea how it would like when i will finnish it...
pls pls post replies
03-02-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

ummm

Im afraid I have some bad news matey

DO NOT put alloy flat anywhere on a Helicam.
You'll regret it if you do.
The stuff is a vibration magnet/amplifier

Rod, Bar and Tube is OK but dont use any flat on the thing,.
03-02-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

blazek,
As I have been telling you in the last few weeks in our private conversations the mount is unnecessarily large which makes it structurally weaker and easier to vibrate. Some areas also require attention to make them stronger and remove any play. The bearings you fitted yesterday is a good start but much more thought is needed. I expect that the camera part of the mount (the inverted-U) will start wobbling badly if it’s resonant frequency falls close to the rotor RPM. Larger and heavier parts have lower resonant frequencies and you rotor speed is indeed very low at around 26-29Hz (1560- 1740RPM). The mount may look strong on the ground but as soon as you take off it a completely different story.

-Angelos
03-02-2004 Over year old.
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

dear MPA

as u wrote ''DO NOT put alloy flat anywhere on a Helicam.
You'll regret it if you do.
The stuff is a vibration magnet/amplifier''
i will agree to this and i was wandering if i would change the base of the mount using another kind of structure for example somthing like this...





which would be based on varios mount and airfoils system for the pan&tilt would it work? the only problem will be the weight i thing...

as for u dear aggelos....
i will agree to your coments ''The mount may look strong on the ground but as soon as you take off it a completely different story.''
but all the other notices that you wrote me as u know i am not a mechanical so i prefer to explain me again tonight cause i feel like you are writing me kinezika...
03-02-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Yes
Note that one has used ROD (solid round long sections) and Square RHS (rolled hollow section).

Both are more rigid

FLAT (rolled or extruded sheet in narrow lengths) will vibrate like a set of Guitar strings.
03-02-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Flyingeye
Senior Heliman
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Vibration Testing

Here is a thought on testing vibration and oscillation. Test before you fly. I chucked a small (1/8" or 3/16") 90 degree allen wrench in my electric drill so the long end was out to the side. I then figured out what speed on the drill corresponded to head speed on my helicopter (optical tachometer). Now, suspend the helicopter by a string from the head to a hook in the ceiling. now, spin the dril at head speed and CAREFULLY hold the SIDE of the case of the drill against the frame of the helicopter to simulate the vibration from the main rotor. Hold the heli on one hand lightly and the drill in the other. Now slowly start reducing the speed of the drill and see if any of the mount or the helicopter starts vibrating and flopping. What you are doing is testing for resonance at frequencies of head speed and below. Test for higher frequencies too, if you like. I assert you don't need to worry about the higher frequency vibrations like tail rotor and motor/engine if you have reasonable rubber isolation mounts. Also change the orientation of the drill so you excite different axes of vibration.

It's not laboratory quality but can give you quite a bit of insight without having to learn in the air and you can see things better because you're right there with your nose in it.
03-03-2004 Over year old.
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

i change the hole thing on my mount,tommorow i am gonna upload some pictures of the new setup of it.
03-07-2004 Over year old.
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

another option ofr my mount?

hallo all again
the true is that i finish it in less than 3 hours... the point is to collect all the info u could have and then start building...
i rebuild my mount and there are the results...
dear MPA any advices would be helpfull





03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
RC-Archer
Heliman
Location: Armpit, CO

Try it out!!
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

i wish but the weather here the last few days is like a pain in the ass so i figured y don't i buther my good rr friends... and share ussefull info with them?
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
RC-Archer
Heliman
Location: Armpit, CO

Do you have some roll or pendulum action going there?
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Hi

Well the legs look a bit more substantial, still a bit tall.

Those lengths of flat from one skid to the other side.
Id suggest you only need some thinner strap or cable across them to ensure they dont spread.
Perhaps the reason they are so large is to support the frame structurally a bit but thats not going to work out that way due to the direction of loadings on it.

Keep in mind that the higher the thing is the more force that is applied to those joints and legs.
Simply the amount of leverage on the joints is increased the longer they are.

You can do this two ways, shove bits together and hope or do some basic maths on the parts you are using to calculate load capacity.
Then youll know if things will break or not.

The leg joints for example
Work out the load on them by measuring the length of the leg to determine how much torque is on the joints.
Calculate the modulus of the alloy pipe to determine what load it will yeild (bend) at.

If thats all a bit much and you want to do it by trial and error then youll have to lean more to the solid side than the flimsy side of construction.
If you build it tougher than it need be it might be too heavy but at least it wont break up.
Once youve got the basic rig then you can trim it down a bit but dont go making it under rated for the stress it will have on it.

Adding to the height as you have it assures everything on it will have a lot more load than a smaller rig and so you would have to have proportionatly larger components to ensure it doesnt break, as you can see for yourself if you compare to other rigs yours does not have heavier duty fittings and so with all the extra lengths it is more than likely some part of it will come adrift not to mention unruly in flight.

The "signs" on the side are best on a sandwich boards on the ground where your working, they are sails on the heli and any wind will see the tail wagging the dog.
(Mount takes over flight from Heli)

To be honest there is a list as long as my arm of things you need to modify or rectify on it.
Im not sure if all of those things will be interperated by you to your benefit.

My advice at this point, if you are not going to simply copy another design that others use and want to recreate your own style of mount then youll have to do a good deal more homework before you even get out the hack saw, and spend a lot more than 3hrs on it let alone 3 weeks.

If you are trying to cut costs down, you can do that to a limit but after that youll be putting a lot more worth of heli at risk than youll save on the mount if it breaks up.

Blazek, I'm not going to blow smoke up your arse and tell you its all good..
Not everyone is cut out to construct or make their own mount.
I am a qualified motor mechanic and have done some additional part time schooling for things like metal fabrication and welding so I dont find it too hard, I just lack things like machinery to cut and mill things as neatly and easy as Id like.

When I look at a commercial mount, to me it looks like a hundred bucks of alloy, cf and bolts.
To some others it looks like an intricate technical item.
To some others it may as well be a tree stump, so long as it fits on the heli and carries a camera.

As youve only spent a relatively short time making the thing Id suggest at this point you cut your losses and get yourself an Airfoil mount.
Your down about $30 of alloy so far.
My view is by the time you have something your going to get working well you are likely to be worse off financially than if you'd purchased one..

Ive said it before to others, the Airfoill is cheap and does the job.
For some folks out there they will spend a lot more hacking up chunks of materials to make one and a lot more hrs wrestling with it.
Order off the net, open the pack, push A into B and B into C, strap it on the heli, shoot pics and be happy.

Heliscan mount is another underslung mount, we havent had anyone here with mileage on one just yet and it may turn out great, for now you dont need to be sorting bugs on new design rigs you need a proven one you can just fit and use and and the Airfoil is that.

Failing that Id be taking a good hard look at others mounts and if in doubt just copy the construction to the letter, at least you can be sure its working for them and so should follow for you.

I do this myself.
I have just completed another remote vision project myself and I have copied quite a few things and copied from the top of the range gear worth 20 thousand +.
I made mine for under 2 thou AU.

Some might think I just made the bits all neat, put it together and crossed my fingers
But there was weeks of calculations and lots of drawings and dimension changes before I got the saw out and purchased materials.
Ive been at it since December last year.
All the extra time paid off because it works exactly as planned.
In fact even better.
But the fact is it is something that I do not have the pleasure of making errors with due to the dangers, the same follows with the heli and the mount just on a smaller scale.

These mounts may look like they are just a strung together by trial and error but youll find a good deal more time is spent on them before a single thing is cut to size.
There is no shortcut way around that other than laying down cash for one from someone who has the ability to make a good clean end product that will handle the load more than adequately and not upset the heli in flight.

Regards
Dave
03-08-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

hallo again...

1stly dear RC-Archer i don't have install yet any roll or pendulum action because i am working on what to fit....

And secondly dear MPA when i asked u for advices i wouldn't expect these tones of info... thnx a lot...!!!!

I have to apologise myself to u that when i said ''i rebuild it, in less than 3 hours''. the fact is that i am working on having research the last 9 months on it.... so i figured that i had an idea on how to make it real but there are sure things i haven't messured yet... so that's y i am addicted to RR to fill my blanks and have discusions with others that are addicted the same with me and they are for sure are in another level....they have experience something that i don't have yet... you see i am on rc helis the last 10-11 months...

the optional that u give me ...to buy the airfoil's mount it's a good deal for the US states but here in greece it will cost me over 1000$ shipping handling and we have also taxes on about 30% of CIF value so i respect the innovation of airfoil's system but i have to be honnest... i am not going to spend thousands of $ when i don't know if that will give me the chance to earn the money i had spend to buy it, because i dont't have any client list yet. if the airofoil aviation had a provider in europe i would be glad to buy it...cause at least i wouldn't have to pay the 30% CIF so for now i preffer to build something my own and make mistakes u see here in greece we have a dictum they say ``u learn from your mistakes''

so when i will reach the level that i am gonna be satisfied to start looking someones system that would be help me out to do things that i will not be able to do with mine...i am gonna buy from airfoil's or wherever...
thnx again for your time i'll try to change the things from your notices and next week i am gonna post pictures again...

Regards
John
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
RC-Archer
Heliman
Location: Armpit, CO

John, Keep trying, While calculations and engineering is a good thing to do, there is nothing wrong with trial and error.

So like I said before, try it out and see if it works. If it doesn't work, try something else. If it breaks, make it stronger or brace it. Finally after a while, you'll get something that works for you and you can build version #2 that will be a leaner and meaner camera mount.
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Hi

Yes I realise that my reply is not what you expect but like I say I dont blow smoke.
I call it how I see it, to everybody.
Never had any reason to impress people with lies, so I dont bother.

If you dont like my view on things then thats just the way it goes.
We have a saying here
"You have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth"

The reasons Ive made the suggestions to you is looking at the rig you have made some improvements but I dont think your quite grasping the essence of what was stated originally.

In that I didnt mean just tweak a few parts here and there, I meant you really need to start from the ground up and this time be more dilligent about the matterials choice.

You can see yourself looking at other mounts you dont use the same materials for much of it, perhaps you have done reasearch but the end game is youve come up with something that is not like other mounts.
Looks similar but there is much that differs.

Now either you know something others dont or you have not learnt from others here.
And the point being if you are not ahead of the game, then your best to copy others and work from that.

As far as the cost of an Airfoil rig, that is simply the cheapest "alternative" to making your own.
And like I said making your own "can" end up costing more.
Particularly if it breaks and your heli hits the dirt.

I built a pile of mounts myself and made major changes and had to trash a lot of parts to get there and had a pile left over.
If the problem is youve grown attached to your mount and dont feel you need to rethink the design then to me its a failure to admit defaet on some thing and try another way, and at that rate my advice to you is worthless.
At anytime I may look at something in progress and decide this is going nowhere and it time to re do it.
I dont do that just to be a pain in the arse but to ensure you dont end up with some pile of junk and that you end up with something usable and reliable based on the any advice you might get from me.
im not going to tell you to twst it together with a few bolts and the cheapest matterial you can get with disregard to the cost of damaging your heli.

Others might tell you to just cross fingers and give it a shot but mate, they dont have to pay for your busted heli.

Regards
Dave
03-08-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Helicek
Senior Heliman
Location: istanbul - turkey

MPA,

"And secondly dear MPA when i asked u for advices i wouldn't expect these tones of info... thnx a lot...!!!!"

I think "blazek" has meant to say that he did not expect "tons of info". He was not referring to the tone of your reply. Or was he? uh?

Cheers
Ahmet
03-08-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

ooopps
u you missundersdand me i was very happy to read ur comments and that was a lot of help to me. maybe my fluent is bad and you didn't relized that i said that by the good way...
anyway it's my 3rd try for this mount but someday i am gonna reach your potentials and will all be happy
anyway i am gonna give a shot with some cross fingers.. to try it and see the results wish me good luck!!!
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Helicek
Senior Heliman
Location: istanbul - turkey

Blazek,
I am sorry I intruded. I know you mean well and I know you will do well.
Cheers,
Ahmet
03-08-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
blazek
Senior Heliman
Location: Greece-Athens

no no pls come on inda house everyone is welcome
guys we share our knowledge eachother and we have fun this the point right? ha?

regards
john
03-08-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

No probs.

I am my own greatest critic when building something like this and I am the same with other peoples gear too, some dont take it so well in the past here.

Im just making the point that my advice is not always what you want to hear and in this case it may appear a bit negative and I dont want you to get the wrong idea that it is criticism of you, it is not.
Just the mount.
And the concern that you will damage your heli if the mount performs badly in the air and that wont make you happy.

It fine for you to say youll just hope for luck and give it a shot, its your heli, I feel that is very bad advice coming from others to advise you to take such risks.
If you are going to throw caution to the wind then that has to be your call and no-one elses.

You need to make some extensive changes and look closely at others under slung mounts for, in particular, dimensions..
Compare your heli to your mount in size, then look at others mounts and compare them to their helis to see the scale difference between your mount size and others.

Is you frame the same height as your heli ?
If you look at others you will see their mount is smaller than their heli generally, this tells you how much larger your own mount is since you know their heli and yours are about the same height less the mount..

At this point yours appears too large from the pics Ive seen..

The damper in the pan tilt looks good but the alloy flat for the frame doesnt look so good for the job, yeah some still use the alloy flat for the camera frame even Airfoil, but if they took a real close look at how that type of frame perfoms and its downside Im sure they would cease using it.
At least you got rid of it from the legs.
The camera pan gears and mount bar all look right.

The camera pan tilt frame doesnt need to be that tall and it looks like that camera is tilting very high up which will put the tilt gear under a fair stress and will translate into servo jitter that wont help the camera..
You need to have the camera almost on its CofG point front to rear tilting.

Above all, reduce the sizes of legs and frame and dont cut cost on the materials and go using that alloy flat anywhere you can avoid using it.

Regards
Dave
03-09-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
4 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ]3182 viewsPOST REPLY
Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies

.
.
Aerial Photography and Video > any opinions for my mount????
 PRINT TOPIC Advertisers 

Subscribe to This Topic

Saturday, November 22 - 1:01 pm - Copyright © 2000 - 2008 runryder.com | email | link to rr | runryder needs cookie