RunRyder - Any police officers on here? I have a question.

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Off Topics > Any police officers on here? I have a question.

Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Interesting responses.

Basically, Knimrod and Greg are right. Doppler radar and LIDAR are two completely different animals.

And your basic patrol cop is certified as an operator, NOT a technician. While he is expected, under the law in most jurisdictions, to be familiar with how and why it operates, he is neither expected nor required to be able to quote rhyme and verse on the principles of the Doppler effect or light diffusion. Like Greg said, he CHECKS the calibration.

And it always amuses me to hear the old refrain, "They can't do that!", when indeed they can. Even better is the armchair pontificator who quotes arcane legal doctrine, etc., when he really hasn't a clue what goes on in the real world. The blunt truth of the matter is that every jurisdictional segment of the US legal pie is its own little fiefdom; a police action that is perfectly legal and accepted in Spider Crotch, Oklahoma might be a henious "abuse of police power" in Los Angeles. After the Rodney King fiasco, those poor sods can't drink a cup of coffee without some camcorder-toting civil rights activist shadowing their every move. And please, let's not get into a urination competiton over THAT. While the cops weren't guiltless, there is a BUNCH of information that was never publicized. The 30-second clip of that worthless sack of **** being pummeled on the ground was preceded by a full three minutes of him violently resisting arrest; CNN never showed us that.

Ivan, there is another, much simpler side to many of these stories. This might piss you off, but I've seen it happen too many times; and especially with women.

The scenario goes like this; either she was someplace she shouldn't have been when she got bagged, and is trying to deflect attention from that. Or she genuinely believes what she said, and is simply wrong on the events. Or she is trying to shift the blame for any of a number of other reasons.

Before you make too big of a stink, you might want to be SURE the story is exactly like she related it. She might have committed two separate violations within a few minutes of each other, and it took the other cop that long to catch up to her. Every citation I have ever seen shows the time, date, and location of the violation; NOT when/where the ticket is issued.

And, of course, it could be exactly the way she told you. In which case, and in my professional opinion, something "ain't right" with that deal. Just BE SURE of your facts before raising too much hell.

I've been a state trooper for 25 years. About a third of that has been as either a road trooper writing those tickets, or a shift sergeant managing the grunts and fielding complaints. I can tell you this with certainty; there is ALWAYS another side of the story.

And Greg is right on another issue; if she stands up in court and says, "But Your Honor, I was only going 51!", stick a fork in her; she's done.

Where ya at, Juan? You need to get in on this...

02-12-2004 Over year old.

armageddon
Veteran
Location: N. Y.

Let us address another matter...

How about the second cop that gave her a ticket..
what is his problem.?

If he sees that she is already being ticketed...
if she was driving recklessly that would be another matter...

I don't know.. wasn't there.. but unless she was being
confrontational with the officers, they shouldn't have ticketed her
twice...

.

WHAT SIGNATURE?

02-12-2004 Over year old.

HELIGOOD
Heliman
Location: Is this heaven? No it's Iowa

KG_26WARPIG

Right on brother!

John cougar mellonhead

Boy am I hungover

"A gun is a tool. No better, no worse than any other tool. An axe, a shovel, or anything.

02-12-2004 Over year old.

Obsessive
Key Veteran
Location: 41.73N 71.41W

If she wanted to get out of either or both tickets, all she had to do was give the cops a Superbowl Halftime show.

KG -

I believe it was "The Clash"...

02-12-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Ted Toth
Elite Veteran
Location: Myrtle Beach S.C.

As long as thiers cops here
Does any of you know what
WWJD stands for

Some may say What Would Jesus Do

>

>

>
NO

Cops

Say

WE WANT JELLY DOUGHNUTS

Now don’t shoot me I just could not resist the opportunity ..

.

You don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stopped laughing.

02-12-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

proptwister
Senior Heliman
Location: SW Missouri

Quote
if she stands up in court and says, "But Your Honor, I was only going 51!", stick a fork in her; she's done.

Classic. I like this one.

Matt

Evo 90 OS C-Spec 91 w/OMI Mod
Evo 50 OS Hyper 50
JR 9303
Wildcat Fuel

02-12-2004 Over year old.

KnimRod
Senior Heliman
Location: Central Michigan

Something to consider the next time your stopped by a police officer: It's darn near impossible to talk your way out of a ticket but it's real easy to talk your way into one.

Lance

02-12-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Newdaddy
Heliman
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

If I correctly understand the facts presented, on or about the same time, two police cars stopped a car based on conflicting speed measurements, and the officers proceeded to line up and record the name and address of a beautiful single woman.

02-12-2004 Over year old.

Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

<<..they shouldn't have ticketed her twice...>>

Unless, as I mentioned, she was observed by the two cops at separate times and shut down by the second while the first one was trying to catch up to her.

You can play the "what if?" game with these scenarios all day long.

Bottom line; only the facts count. And none of us have those yet.

.

02-12-2004 Over year old.

eSmith
Veteran
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Pay the ticket's.

Listen to the guy's here who have been police officers, they know this stuff.

As Steve pointed out, we don't know the facts. That aside (we never get the facts before debating someting on RR, that would take all the fun out of it) I think she's guilty.

not one, but two tickets from two different gun's, used by two different officers and you still think your wife wasn't speeding at all? It's all the speedomoters fault, and it could only be wrong by 1 mile, so she must have been only going 51 huh..

I think, as someone already pointed, that she may have spotted one of the cars and was slowing down when she got dinged by the second. Or perhaps she got dinged by the first one and felt "There, I got a ticket, now I can speed as if I paid a fee to be allowed to" and then found out how wrong she was and isn't happy about it so she calls you up to vent. Your mistake is taking it all for gospel.

The chances of two officers hitting her car at the EXACT same moment in time, I mean it would have to be exact to the hundredth of a second, is so slim as to not be expected.

If you go into court claiming that since the tickets were issued within loosly the same time peroid, it means they have to have the exact same reading, your going to get a strange look for the judge who is going to give you some incentive to go get some learn'in before you consider presenting another judge with suce a laughable defence.

At one time I worked with some bylaw enforcement guy's. The would issue tickets for parking infractions at malls and what not. One time he was ticketing a car for being in a handicap zone without a handicap tag. As he was writing it, the car's owner came out and started to freak out. He was told you need a tag to park there, he said he know's that and he has one, it's in his glove compartment. The bylaw officer explained that he would be able to explain that to the judge when it goes to court if he wanted to fight it, but that since the tickets are numbered in sequence and are legal documents, he cannot stop once he has started writing the ticket.

This didn't impress the guy at all (oh ya, he may have had a tag in his car but showed absoutly no other sign that he was disabled in any way, Personally, I feel that it's an abuse of the handicap parking system when families feel the priviledges extend to them because they happen to be related to a handicap person) Anyway, the bottom line is that if you have a tag, you are required to show it or expect the ticket.

If we could have givin him a second ticket for wasting our time by being a dumbass, we would have.

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

02-12-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Matlock
Heliman
Location: Gardendale, Alabama (Birmingham Area)

An American Analysis

GMcNair,

I am a BSL baby! Where do you fly at?

OK, guys, just got to put this out there, so don't hate me, ok? I have been in and around law enforcement for the better part of my life and there always seems to emerge this very familiar trend.

We want the police to do thier jobs, just not to us. We gripe and complain about poor schools and not enough roads, etc. but fight with all our might to repeal and stop taxes. It seems as though we always want the "other" guy to slow down or pay his fair share of taxes, yet we do not want that to apply to us. (bear with me, I'm getting there!)

What we have here is this, a person, who is caught doing something wrong, (no offense Ivan!) and even admits to it (51 in a 45). Now the real issue here is, why doesn't the person just own up to it, confess, save everybody alot of time a trouble--not that there are not innocent people out there--and end the whole she-bang! Think of all the times you have EVER broken the law and not gotten caught. Now think back to the time you did. You know you have gotten away with doing the wrong thing so long that you now hate yourself for it. You have broken the law probably millions of times more than you got caught. Now, say the po-po catches you speeding or whatever. Why would you fight what you know is the truth? Maybe it is because we are so ashamed that we got caught and have been told by the officer we are in the wrong, it simply angers us? Now its the fault of the Police for making me pay that $140 and missing work?

Don't get me wrong here, I understand about innocent people and even the two ticket thing (and I certainly ain't taking shots at Ivan's girl, it is just a good soap box) BUT why would this individual not just go to court and say, hey, I'm sorry, I'm guilty, could you please allow me to pay one ticket instead both? If not, Yes, I have speed in the past and you didn't catch me, so I understand.

Maybe its this, our new culture has taught us to run from what really happened (Even our own president did it Clinton) and put as much spin on the event so that the truth is so mixed up, we get away with something else. What has happen to the truthful person, what has happen to our moral fiber?--Sorry for the sermon--I do understand there are bad cops and even more bad people. But why can't we as a society just admit we are wrong sometimes? Why do we fight so hard to make an honest person (the police in this situation) look so bad when what they are really doing is giving us the maximum return for our tax dollar?

Think about that, If an woker gets paid salary of "X" every week and does nothing but what is required and you have a second worker who works ten times as hard and gets ten times as much done for the same pay, who would you hire?

We have taught our police, our mayors, our whole society that if you work hard, somebody is going to fight you. We should want our police in the news for writing 250 tickets a month and not complain when we see our neighbor stopped and become one of that 250 for flying by our house yet again because he ran late for work.

Be proud of your government officials who actually work hard for their dollar because so many today do so little, but only because we have taught them that through lawsuits and complaints.

Believe me I know because I am at that point, I recieve requests for patrol all the time and sure enough, when I drop the hammer on somebody they are the first to complain on me and usually they are the one who called for the patrol and to complain that there are too many speeding cars on their block. I usually catch them speeding first, then get a complaint and then get told not to write any tickets there for a while till things calm down. Dammmmed if you do and Dammmmed if you don't.

Oh and just to touch on one last thing:

Quote
Even better is the armchair pontificator who quotes arcane legal doctrine, etc., when he really hasn't a clue what goes on in the real world. The blunt truth of the matter is that every jurisdictional segment of the US legal pie is its own little fiefdom

Apparently you have worked in every fiefdom over your 25 years. I really do have a "clue", as you said, because this is what I do to feed my family day in and day out and the doctrine is not arcane but modern and dually applied in every court of law and equity in the United State and English world. True every state handles things a little differently than others but all that was offered was advise on the modern doctrines now in use...do keep in mind that "the armchair pontificator" as you have addressed me does know legal doctrine well. You also admit to your armchair pontification with that you have 25 years experiece not experiencing or researching what my legal pontification means. Please do note that no one resorted to any name calling and derogatory comments for thier offer to help but respectfully disagreed, that is until your post appeared...so, I respectfully diagree with you on that pontification point.

Sorry for the long post guys, I just had to put it out there as food for thought!!

02-12-2004 Over year old.

Skip Wescott
Heliman
Location: Nags Head NC.

ck the time on the citiation to when she got them,you can not be charged at the same time for the same thing,in the case of two officers clocking her at the same time in most cases the newer office will make the charge and the other one will be his witness at least thats the way we do it in NC.

02-12-2004 Over year old.

Matlock
Heliman
Location: Gardendale, Alabama (Birmingham Area)

good point, that done here in AL also, remember, a radar reading is simply evidence of the crime, the officer still has to testify he saw her speeding and the evidence only backs up his testimony. In AL you don't have to have a radar reading, you can just write the ticket under the prudent and reasonable speed statute (32-5a-170) instead of the posted speed limit statute(32-5a-171).

02-12-2004 Over year old.

Skip Wescott
Heliman
Location: Nags Head NC.

SPEED

ok well I didnt want to get in to GS.# but---------- I think she got caught 2 times?????????as we say sh## happens LOL

02-13-2004 Over year old.

GMcNair
Key Veteran
Location: Birmingham AL

To heck with flying or building, i'm lovin' a good catfight! Ahh, the joys of being a JAFO nowadays.

Matlock, I fly at the McCalla field, but only scale stuff. I got out of flip-flopping because I was no good at it. Coming to the Bham funfly in March? Look for me.

I used to love the patrol requests for the upper middle class neighborhoods in our county, where speed limits were 25 on long straightaways. I once caught a person doing 52 in a 25. That's aggravated speeding in this state, and good for another few points on the license, in addition to a much higher fine. Upon presentation of the ticket to the customer, she said "But i'm one of the people who called for these patrols!" I advised her to call her friends and tell them that when she speaks, not only do we listen, but we act quickly, and she has a piece of paper to prove it.

02-13-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

Steve Campbell wrote:

Quote
Where ya at, Juan? You need to get in on this...

Hey Steve-O, I agree with everything you've said. I guess it's my turn to stand up to the plate......

The Double Jeapordy issue........ In this case, it doesn't exist...... You must have been found guilty of the FIRST offense before you have protection against being charged twice with the SAME crime.....In this case, I don't think any court proceedings have taken place yet.....Nor is there enough evidence (as has been pointed out) to show that it was in fact, the SAME crime......

Regarding the Radar guns.......... I believe it has been stated that the ANGLE to the target can make a difference in the reading.......The greater the angle, the greater the error in reading.....(straight on is the most accurate) There is actually a chart which shows the relationship.....

One Radar gun said 71......One Radar gun said 66.........Motorist admits to 51........... Speed limit is 45............. What part of this not understandable ??????? SHE WAS FRIGGIN SPEEDING, PERIOD !!!!!!!! Like Steve C said, "Stick a fork in her, she's done"

Here's a little tip....... If you get pulled over for speeding and the officer asks you, "Do you know how fast you were going ?????".....DON'T TELL HIM/HER THE THRUTH !!!!!!! Tha't a question that is asked to see if you will incriminate yourself and CAN be used by the officer agaist you in court !!!!! (Steve.....yea, I know.....I shouldn't be letting these secrets out but what the heck, you and I don't do that kind of stuff anymore !!!!! )

As someone has already stated, the radar equipment is checked for proper calibration at the user level....... How often is probably a department by department policy....... In the Rochester Police Department, the Radar guns are "re-calibrated and re-certified" every 4 months and the equipment is sent away, on a rotating basis, for that service.......The officer checks that calibration by the use of the tuning forks at the start of each shift.......There is a low speed fork (35 mph, I believe) and a high speed fork (75 mph, I believe) and if the unit passes BOTH tests, he's good to go for using the gun......

FESTUS......... is right on the money......... If that was the scenario that took place (ie, she got the first ticked, trucked down the road a bit and got the second) then SHAME ON HER........ Obviously , she didn't get the message the first time......

ARMAGEDDON writes....

Quote
How about the second cop that gave her a ticket..If he sees that she is already being ticketed...

Well, obviously she didn't learn the first time around as she was speeding again a short time after !!!!!!!!! You would think that getting the first ticked would have convinced her to comply with the posted speed limit..... Some people learn the hard way, I suppose.....Which brings me to RStacy's comment........

Quote
One of my favorite stories from Juan is about a woman that forced him to write her a ticket!!

This post is WAY too long as it is but suffice it to say that this woman was FULLY responsible for the "non radar" ticket I gave her..... Afterwards, she jerked me around by making me appear in traffic court 3 or 4 times (as I recall) and she would not show...... After the 4th "non appearance" on her part, the court found her guilty without her presence and suspended her license until she paid the fine..... She did.......

My experience level is similar to Steve's......... I was a Rochester Police Officer for 20 yrs, the last 2/3 of that time as a Sergeant. Thirteen of those years was spent "on the road in uniform"......Currently I'm starting my 5th year with the District Attorney's Office as an Investigator..........

02-13-2004 Over year old.

Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Matlock,

Methinks I hit a nerve???

Actually, I wasn't addressing that remark to you. To be totally frank, I didn't even read your post on the first go-around. I got as far as the photos and decided to make a post of my own. I rarely stoop to name-calling, and certainly not to an attorney (or almost-attorney). That title is enough baggage to bear.

I've never heard of your "Merger Doctrine", but I can tell you for a fact that, every day, people can and do get charged with ancillary crimes of the main offense.

A good example is the drunk driver. Since it is rather difficult to convince a judge or jury that you knew, beyond a reasonable doubt, that somebody driving a vehicle was drunk, you must articulate your probable cause to stop said vehicle in the first place. Speeding, improper lane usage, failure to signal for a turn, etc., are additional charges (called the "predicate charge) used for PC. Around here, they are usually dropped if the guy was indeed drunk and so pleads. A few latrine lawyers always manage to irritate the assistant district attorney prosecuting the case, and stand trial for all charges. Again, as has been mentioned , this is called letting your mouth write a check your ass cannot cash.

No, I haven't worked in all jurisdictions. But I do have cop buddies all over the US (such as Greg and Juan). During the inevitable shop talk sessions, you get a feel for how things are done in different places. English common law may indeed be the baseboard for most US law (except in Lousyana, but that's another story), but the way it is applied is vastly different in various parts of the country.

I suppose you cut class the day that was discussed; if indeed it was discussed at all.

Matlock, cops deal in reality. Theories, principles and doctrines are all noble entities. However, like the virtues of honor and integrity, they can be very fleeting and nebulous when it is time to dump or get off the pot.

Perhaps one day you'll learn this truism; cops and lawyers are a necessary evil. And that's where the similarities between the two professions ends.

.

02-13-2004 Over year old.

Matlock
Heliman
Location: Gardendale, Alabama (Birmingham Area)

OK, Steve, you too have restored the faith I have in my fellow citizens. No, I understand that you did not now direct your comment toward me, and appologize for any offense you may have taken from my return fire paragraph --though at the time I thought you were trying to offend me and your work had been rewarded.

I just put that out so Ivan would hopefully have a small becon to light a way toward a solution, it was never meant as a do all say all of cops and robbers and the way we should do our jobs.

Just for the record though, I'm a cop too and have learned the truisms you speak of. My father was a cop, my uncle's a cop and now all of my friends are cops(seems to come with the territory). I have put plenty of my time in on night shift patrol and holidays to know the routine. The beautiful thing is that I am aware that an education and theory teaches a man one thing: There is always more to learn. Walking through one door in the legal world only opens ten more, which is why, btw I think most young lawyers and officers get into trouble in their first days, not enough experience and too much knowledge.

One of the primary reasons I went into law enforcement to begin with was to gain the practiacal knowledge that I now have and am able to exercise.

Please don't forget that I have dumped, been dumped, and now too get to dump on those under the pot. And yes I know and realize that the law is applied to many different situations in many different styles but let us please remember that it all has a basis of the same kind. Of course no one is going to expect me in AL or you in LA to know the ins and outs of CA law. Hence my advice to Ivan, I tried to give a simple explanation of that doctrine to give him a little guidance to his dillema but is seems to have been turned into the wrong direction. I too know the countless applications and twists of practical legal advice (was putting myself through law school a good idea?

)

Steve I too deal in reality, everyday, just like you speak of. But don't forget that without the theory, without guidance our real life experience is worthless because we don't know where we are going or where we have been.

No offense meant, hope none was taken, until we meet again...

02-13-2004 Over year old.

GMcNair
Key Veteran
Location: Birmingham AL

NOW