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Off Topics > Any police officers on here? I have a question.
 
 
Ivan
Veteran
Location: Hutchinson Kansas

Hello.

I got a call from my beautiful fiance today, and she explained to me this very disturbing situation.

She was apparantly speeding, at least that is the accusation. The zone was a 45 and she was ticketed for 71 by one officer and 66 by another. ep, at the same time. Two police cars stopped and she got two tickets at the same time. Now she said that her speedometer was indicating about 51, and I being an ASE Certificated mechanic know that her speedometer is not that far off. I think it has about a 2% error. So at 100mph, it would indicate 102. Noting that there were other cars very near her and she was not overtaking them, I would say that there was some form of error, either in the radar, or in the minds of the officers involved.

Is it legal for one to get two tickets at the same time for the same offence?

How can one prove that the radar readings were obviously falacious?

thanks.

I came, I saw, I hovered
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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jb_turner
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Get Legal Advise.
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Vance
Veteran
Location: York ,PA

At the hearing ask for the calibration records from the radar involved. They are usually up to date but you could get lucky. Find out how often they are to be calibrated and when they were next due for one.
The magistrate will have to decide if he believes the trained police officers or your untrained fiance. It depends on how much money you want to spend. you could appeal several times till you get to a "judge" in county court( at least in PA). By this time you have spent more on lawyer's fees than the cost of paying the ticket. Do your principals run as deep as your pockets?
Vince D
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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KnimRod
Senior Heliman
Location: Central Michigan

If she got 2 tickets for the same crime, she certainly can't be prosecuted for 2 crimes. After all, we do have "double jeopardy" laws which prevent a person being tried more than once for the same crime. She will likely be prosecuted for a single infraction with both radar readings used as evidence against her.

Another thing to consider is that if 2 radar units were used at the same time, the emitted signals and reflections could interfere with each other and cause all kinds of errors. Proving this however, will require a fair amount of research on your part or the testimony of an expert. Then again, a good judge may have heard it all before and understand the situation. Regardless, I would certainly make a stink about it in court.

Good luck!

Lance
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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Hughes500Pilot
Key Veteran
Location: Anaheim, CA

Ok, a few points to consider.

First, is the speeding ticket. If a police officer is using a radar gun, you should expect it to be extremly accurate. The radar guns are calibrated at the start of the shift, several times during the shift and at the end of the shift. As long as the officer swears in cout that it was functioning properly, it is almost impossible to fight a radar ticket.

To add to that, an offiver visually estimates a cars speed prior (and during) the use of the radar gun. That is done to verify the basic accuracy of the radar gun. If the officer visually estimates the car at 70 mph and the radar gun comes back with 72 mph, common sense says the gun was working properly. Also remember, an officer can write a ticket by simply visually estimating your speed. There is no specific law that states a radar gun must be used.

Second, is the calibration of the speedometer. Yes, they can be broken or not working. But it is very rare for one to be off by such a large amount. Keep in mind a broken or malfunctioning speedometer does not get you out of a ticket. Common sense should tell you that you are going way over the speed limit if you are passing all other cars.

Third point - the two tickets. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I find it very hard to believe that two different officers would write you a ticket AT THE SAME TIME. As pointed out above, there is something called double jeopardy. That means you can not be charged for the same offense twice. I do not see how any cop would start writting a ticket after another cop was already writting one?

This is not to say she got pulled over, got a ticket and then drove away. Then, a few minutes later a second cop pulls her over a few minutes later for speeding again. In her mind, "she got two tickets at the same time." I was not there, so I dont know what really happened.

We have had a few times where people were given tickes for the same offense. It involves red light cameras. What happens is a person blows the red light and a cop pulls them over and gives them a ticket. However, unknown tot he cop and the person is that the red light camera took their photo and they get a ticket in the mail. In those cases, the court will dismiss one of the tickets (usually the cop's since the other one has a photo record of the violation).

Fourth point - The radar guns not having the same speed on their display. It could have been very simply that she was slowing down (or speeding up for that matter) as the two radar speeds were recorded within a few seconds of each other. You would have a very hard time proving the radar guns were used at the exact same moment in time and displayed two different speeds. As for the radar guns giving false readings beacuse they were interfering, that is unlikely. Radar guns dont use "radar" any more. They use the Dopler shift from laser beams. There are hundreds of different frequencies used by radar guns. The odds that the two cops had radar guns on the same frequency is very low

Below are a few red light camera sthat caught a crash in progress. Look closley and you can see glass flying through the air as the photo was taken.


-Steve





02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Ted Toth
Elite Veteran
Location: Myrtle Beach S.C.

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You don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stopped laughing.
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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KnimRod
Senior Heliman
Location: Central Michigan

Quote 
As for the radar guns giving false readings beacuse they were interfering, that is unlikely. Radar guns dont use "radar" any more. They use the Dopler shift from laser beams. There are hundreds of different frequencies used by radar guns. The odds that the two cops had radar guns on the same frequency is very low


I respectfully disagree. There is a distinct difference between police "Radar" and police "Lidar" (LIght Detection And Ranging). Doppler radar is still by far, the most common method of electronic speed limit enforcement (at least in MI around 90%) and it is distinctly different than Lidar.

A radar "gun" can be mounted inside a police car (measured through the window glass) and only needs to be pointed in the target direction within a field of about 6 degrees. The radar gun will return the velocity of the strongest radar reflection or echo within that field.

Lidar needs to be precisely aimed by an operator (similar to aiming a scoped pistol) at a light reflective surface of the target. A Lidar gun does not measure change in wave frequency (doppler shift) but does a simple time of flight measurement of the laser pulse from the source to the target and back. It does this many times to determine the change in range over a short time.

Lance
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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Matlock
Heliman
Location: Gardendale, Alabama (Birmingham Area)

Here is your answer:

It is called the Merger Doctrine....which states that one crime, two crimes or how ever many must "merge" into the "highest offense" during the same moment (you can't commit assault and murder on the same person, you would only be charged with murder). This has nothing to do with double jeopardy. No jury has been cast nor has anybody been put into jeopardy twice-the federal government charges people with the same offense named many different ways all the time for the sake of leverage.. yet...further, a person CAN commit two driving offenses at once, but, again we are only talking about speeding here, the higher speed ticket, or "highest speeding offense" will take precidence over the lower speed ticket thereby making a prima facia case for dismissal of the higher speed citation.

and sorry, respectfully Hughes500Pilot you are completely wrong here:

Quote 
Fourth point - The radar guns not having the same speed on their display. It could have been very simply that she was slowing down (or speeding up for that matter) as the two radar speeds were recorded within a few seconds of each other. You would have a very hard time proving the radar guns were used at the exact same moment in time and displayed two different speeds. As for the radar guns giving false readings beacuse they were interfering, that is unlikely. Radar guns dont use "radar" any more. They use the Dopler shift from laser beams. There are hundreds of different frequencies used by radar guns. The odds that the two cops had radar guns on the same frequency is very low


Cool photos though!!!!!!!!

Again no disrespect meant but Radar guns are just that and do use Radar. The doppler effect is detected in a radar cosine, the same principal as a sound wave being compressed as a siren on a police car comes toward you then changes tone once it is gone by you. Radar guns measure the change is frequency and that is precisely how the speed is determined, it is a simple mathematical calculation.

Sorry for the legal talk, just finishing law school.
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Hughes500Pilot
Key Veteran
Location: Anaheim, CA

Ok, I stand corrected on the radar guns. I thought I was right when I typed it in. Thanks for the education. -Steve
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Matlock
Heliman
Location: Gardendale, Alabama (Birmingham Area)

OK, the post just before this one is really cool, you guys try it. How are you able to do that?

You are quite welcome my fellow flyer and btw I didn't do it to be a smart a22 but just wanted our buddy to know in case he did go to court, never should have been two tickets issued for that, very silly thing to do. Sounds like a small town speed trap.
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Hughes500Pilot
Key Veteran
Location: Anaheim, CA

It's magic...



Actually, just click the link below. Then look on the right border and you will see several code generators. -Steve

Click here for the HTML code generator web site
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Matlock
Heliman
Location: Gardendale, Alabama (Birmingham Area)

...just like radar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
GMcNair
Key Veteran
Location: Birmingham AL

I gotta chime in here. Steve, I have to correct another statement you made:

Quote 
First, is the speeding ticket. If a police officer is using a radar gun, you should expect it to be extremly accurate. The radar guns are calibrated at the start of the shift, several times during the shift and at the end of the shift. As long as the officer swears in cout that it was functioning properly, it is almost impossible to fight a radar ticket.


First and foremost, radar guns are not calibrated at the start, during, or even at the end. They are "tested for calibration". This is a very urgent point that must be clarified, because the semantics involved make or break a court case for an LE officer. I have never met and officer who was trained or technically qualified to perform a calibration. They could only test the calibration with a tuning fork. The fork resonated a harmonic to simulate at least a couple of speeds. if the speed appeared accurate on the readout, then the officer could assume the unit was functioning properly. Here's the semantics. The officer tests the calibration of the system at the start, during, and after the shift. If the officer states that he/she calibrated it, then they just set themselves up for a fall with the defense attorney. I know this seems silly, but it's court truth.

Yes, doppler guns can be accurate, but they can also accurately clock the speed of the hvac fan inside the patrol car. I could clock my fan set on high at approximately 28mph, just simply pointing the unit at the dash. I could clock a tree at 12mph. And we were trained that as the angle of attack grew from our gun to the target, the indicated speed of the target would fall off dramatically. In other words, unless the target was within an approximate 5 degree range of the beam, the error would be in favor of the target. Doppler also reads the largest target, not the fastest. If there was another, larger vehicle in the approximate beam of the target, that vehicle would become the target. This is one of the reasons for "reasonable and prudent" speed laws which exist for officer discretion speed charges. As an example, if I had pointed my radar at a semi being passed by a corvette, the semi's speed would register on my unit. It was up to me to determine if the corvette was moving faster than the semi, and to approximate the car's speed accordingly.

As for visually judging the speed of a car, the "real" reason police do this is to reduce the "on" time of the unit. Radar detectors were useless in my patrol area, because I only turned the beam on when I could tell the car was speeding.

Steve, this isn't a "bash Steve" post, so please don't misread it. I just wanted to clarify the point you were making. And the photos you posted are mighty nifty. Loved the pointer hover trick. I too find it hard to believe that two officers would write tickets for the same offense within the same jurisdiction. I'm curious to know if a pair of rookies were just a wee-bit gung-ho. The three most dangerous people in the world:
A newly licensed doctor
A newly trained police officer
A recently licensed teenage driver

Typically armed with only book-smarts, and not much real world/practical training, each has the ability to ruin another person's life in a matter of seconds.

Matlock....BSL, Cumberland, or UA?

Oh, and Ivan, I can guarantee one thing. If your fiance tells the judge her speedometer indicated 51, then she will be admitting guilt to speeding in a 45 zone. Repeat after me: "Your honor, my speedometer indicated I was doing 44!"
02-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Hughes500Pilot
Key Veteran
Location: Anaheim, CA

Not taking it as a "bash." However, I am not a traffic cop and I am not trained to use a radar gun. But, when I do go to court to testify, I hear traffic officers say they confirmed the calibration of their radar guns "before, several times during their shift and at the end of their shift."

I'm just a "regular patrol cop". Yes, I write tickets, but maybe only one or two per week. I'm too busy with other stuff to be writing lots of tickets. -Steve
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
KG_26WARPIG
Heliman
Location: Des Moines, IA

Ivan igot one for ya.....Tell her to slow the F**K DOWN!!

"I fought the law and the law won" who sang that?
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
GMcNair
Key Veteran
Location: Birmingham AL

That would be Bobby Fuller.

Steve, I was a deputy Sgt with a local sheriffs office, and having 950 sq miles in my patrol area, it was easy to come across frequent infractions on daily patrol. Most of my tickets were written in the years prior to my promotion. Sergeants don't get much time to have fun stopping cars. And you're hearing the words of the other officers right...they're checking the calibration, not calibrating.
02-12-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Jim C
Veteran
Location: Indiana, PA

i think the stop watch method is more accurate.. timed between two measured objects, and do the math equasion, and theres the speed. all are subject to corrupted cops tho. i got stopped and they said i was going some ridiculous speed so i asked to see the display on the gun.. and the cop was like.. uh uh uh uh ... just slow it down and let me go. so they all make me wonder. just trying to fill quota.. and dont say there isnt a quota.. cuz that one is BS!

http://jimsrc.com
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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JWBurns
Veteran
Location: The Lone Star State, Dallas Texas

Lets make it simple here guys - To answer his question: Is it legal for one to get two tickets at the same time for the same offense? Yes

It is possible that the two Officers were working the same stretch of highway, well within close proximity of each other.

Our unit operates this way as we commonly see motorists speed up once they've pased a squad - A false sense of security that the road ahead is clear.

Think about it -
Officer A sees the violator traveling 66 in a 45 mile per hour zone. Officer B, working stationary radar a half mile down the road, observes same violator, who has now increased her speed by 5mph, traveling 71 in that same 45 mile per hour zone. Both Officers initiate a traffic stop at which point two citations are issued.

Two separate violations, observed by two separate Officers, working two separate portions of the roadway. In this instance two citations could easily be issued and defended in court.

And unnecessarily defending/debating the operation of the radar is useless as the Officers could have very well been using Laser.

As far as what GMcnair said
Quote 
The three most dangerous people in the world: A newly licensed doctor, A newly trained police officer, A recently licensed teenage driver

Lets not forget the newly trained/licensed "lawer" either

Jason
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Kino
Veteran
Location: Navan, Ireland

Quote 
Ivan igot one for ya.....Tell her to slow the F**K DOWN!!


And in the same spirit of avoiding the ticket in the first place any good tips

I'll take the truck thing as tip number one

Why do we fear change, one of the two certainty's in life
02-12-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Data Android
Senior Heliman
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

I don't know about Kansas, but here in FL it goes something like this:
you drive down the street speeding, cop gives you ticket of $150.00 for speeding (yeah, you where very fast).
Now you give the ticket and $50.00 to a lawyer and ticket gets dismissed.
There are lots of lawyers here in florida that guaranty with money back to get your speeding ticked dismissed.
02-12-2004 Over year old.
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