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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Hacker C50-13L VS Kontronik Fun 600-18 For Logo 10
 
 
srslamalot
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

Hey,
I'm looking into getting a Logo 10 very soon, and the only think I'm up in the air over is the motor. I'm checking the stats on the C50-13L and the Fun 600-18, and they seem really close except for the price (+$50 for the Hacker) So is the Hacker better, or would I just be paying for the name?

Thanks
Tom

If my wife finds out how much these things cost, she's gonna kill me!!!
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

Hello

Paying more for name, no both companies make very high quality equipment. I would think that you are paying more for construction. The C50 series motor have a built in heat sink, bolt down end caps, and a high temperature rotor. With these added features you also gain about 65 grams of weight.

The Fun 600 series motors are similar in construction to the B50 series Hackers. These motors dont have built in heat sinks, the motor end caps are glued in place; Im not sure if the rotors used are as resistant to heat as the new Hacker C50 motors.

If you plan on going the LiPoly route(I did and I love it but Im using a HV setup--Fun600-15, 5s3p Thunder Power LiPoly, 14 tooth pinion--note I have to take breaks after 8 mins because of the temperature of the motor) your better off with the C50 because these motors do get quite hot after flying for long periods of time.

Carlo
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
funheli
Heliman
Location: Northern Calif

Here are some specs to the C50-13L.
There's also a picture of it...just go to components section.

http://rcheli.dyndns.org
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
srslamalot
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

I defiantly want to go with LiPo's on this heli (I'm sick of 3-4 min electric flights) But I was looking into getting a 4s4p. I thought that would be plenty of power.

Eco8gator Why did you pick a 5s3p pack? I thought the 4s4p or 5s4p were what everyone used for the Logo 10. And how do you like your Fun600-15?

Tom

If my wife finds out how much these things cost, she's gonna kill me!!!
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

Hello

The Fun 600-15(14 tooth) is a very nice motor but it cant fly the entire LiPoly pack which last around 13-14 mins of pounding around constantly(I probably need to add a heat sink). I did it once but Im not doing it again because the motor was very hot. Now I fly two 8 min flights with little break inbetween.

The 5s3p is all the Logo needs with the Fun600-15 and a 14 tooth. The controller(Smile 40-6-18--If I was getting new stuff Id go with the Jazz or the Beat) and pack are bairly warm after flights. Also with my setup I am carring 1 less cell than if I was to use a 4s4p setup with is a ~40 grams weight loss.

If you plan on going with the C50-13L(13 tooth pinion) then you should go with a 4s4p pack because that is a pretty hot motor.

If you want to go with a 5s3p, then the Fun600-15(1500 RPM/Volt) with a heat sink and a 14 tooth, or a possibly a C50-17L(1553 RPM/Volt) with a 13 tooth pinion. I also think the Kontronik Tango 45-15(1580 RPM/ Volt) with a 13 tooth would work and be a little lighter than the C50. Note you need to use the Jazz or the Beat with the Tango.

http://www.kontronik.com/Index2.htm

http://www.aircraft-world.com/prod_...eets/hm-C50.htm

Carlo
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rchaas
Senior Heliman
Location: Tulsa, OK

I set my logo 10 up with a B50-16XL and tp 8s2p battery (13 tooth pinion). The advantage of this setup is great power, but less current draw than the 4s4p setups, leading to cooler motor and esc.

I get a total of 17 to 18 min aerobatic flying at 1900 rpm, tons of power, and no battery or motor/esc overheating. (no fan installed, i am using a motor heatsink). I usually do two separate 8 minute flights, but i don't have to, from a temp standpoint.

I am using a Hacker Master Heli 48-3p opto ESC, which seems to be working just fine. Some pics are in my gallery.

Robbie

Robbie
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Robbie,
That is a nice setup! About half the "bog factor" of my TP 5S4P, B50-15L, 14-tooth setup.

- John
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rchaas
Senior Heliman
Location: Tulsa, OK

Yes, very little bogging, even with aggressive 3D. A friend tached it throughout a few flights and it runs around 1900 hover, drops to around 1850 or so with most aerobatics, never below 1800, even with very aggressive collective.

The headspeed only starts to drop after 17.5 min, so that's my general flight time per charge.

Robbie
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
srslamalot
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

rchaas: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an 8s2p pack put out about 29.6v? (3.7v * 8 ) You must be flying at around 50% throttle.
And wouldn't a 8s2p have half the mah then a 4s42? If you could explain the reasoning for your battery choice, it would really help me in deciding in mine.
Tom

If my wife finds out how much these things cost, she's gonna kill me!!!
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Tom,
You have to look at the kV rating of the motor he is using and then you will see that he is flying much closer to 100%.

Yes, the 8S2P is "half the mAh" but it is still the same total stored energy as a 4S4P.

The benefit of a "high voltage" setup is that it reduces the current levels which result in drastically reduced I2R losses.

- John
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
srslamalot
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

Ok, I think i see some of the reasoning. The motor has half the Kv, and the battery is twice the volts. So your spinning about the same head speed. Is the power the same, and which has better durration?
And, how does everything else come into play? Like the motors idle Current (Io) & Resistance (Ri). And what is I2R?
There isn't someplace online I could read up about all of this, is there. I thought I had a good handle on it.

Tom

If my wife finds out how much these things cost, she's gonna kill me!!!
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

Hello

I think he ment power:

[EDIT]

I think Io is the no load current with and Ri is the internal resistance of the motor. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh, and with all these HV LiPoly setups make sure you get a good charger and a power supply that can handle some high current draws(at least 15 amps). I highly recommend the Schulze line of chargers. I have never heard of anyone complain about a schulze blowing things up or burning out. I have had a Schulze 330D for 2.5 years and it has been perfect.

Carlo
PS: I was thinking and that last thing I wrote was compleatly wrong. Sorry about that, and yeah the Power equations are I^2*R, V^2/R and I*V. This has definitally been one of my off days.
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

[EDIT]

P = I*V or P=(I^2)*R or P=(V^2)/R. I2R or I^2 * R or I-squared R losses are those associated with, for example, current moving through a wire. The power lost in the wire increases as the square of the current.

By doubling the voltage, the current is halved and losses are reduced, in theory, by 75%. In a real life power system that doesn't work out quite like that, but close.

Also, the battery cells themselves can produce energy more efficiently at lower current levels.

For example... Compare the following two systems...

a) B50-13L, 14-tooth pinion, TP 4S4P-8000 and
b) B50-16XL, 13-tooth pinion, TP 8S2P-4000
Both running at head speed of 1900 RPM and producing 700 W of rotor power.
Code 
                        a      b

Battery current (A):   56.3   25.9

Efficiency (%):        82.1   89.3

Time (mins):            8.5    9.3

Motor heat (W):        71.2   43.1

You can clearly see that the HV setup is more efficient and the motor will run much cooler.

- John
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rchaas
Senior Heliman
Location: Tulsa, OK

Nicely explained John!

Robbie
02-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
srslamalot
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta, GA

Quote 
You can clearly see that the HV setup is more efficient and the motor will run much cooler.


Does that mean everything else is equal? (power, duration) Because if so, then I'll get the C50-16XL. But where can you find the LiPos in the 8s2p configuration? Or did you modify it yourself?

Tom

If my wife finds out how much these things cost, she's gonna kill me!!!
02-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Given the choice, I would have gone with something like an 8S2P config from the start. Since you are nitro pilot and use to some power, I think you would really like going with a more powerful setup from the start.

> Does that mean everything else is equal? (power, duration)

The 8S2P config listed above is capable of more power (maximum power, that is) than the 4S4P. At a given power level, the 8S2P will be more efficient and, thus, have a longer duration.

The only thing that really has to be considered is what charger you have or will be buying. Lots of chargers will do a 4S pack, but getting one that will do 8S requires a bit more careful selection.

> But where can you find the LiPos in the 8s2p configuration?

I believe if you call TP they will build one for you.

- John
02-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

rchaas,
Are you using throttle curves or governor mode? What are your typical temps after a flight (don't forget to mention the ambient temp when the temps were taken)? You've got me thinking...

Thanks,
John
02-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rchaas
Senior Heliman
Location: Tulsa, OK

John,

I am using governor mode so far, but i plan to experiment a bit with this in the near future. I've got the governor set at 90% (evidently, the hacker esc drops the headspeed 6% in a hover in governor mode, when you have it set at 90%) The weather has been bad, and my radio is at Horizon for repairs, but this spring will bring time to explore all this a bit more.

The ambient temp was b/t 45 to 55 degrees during the most recent flights and temps have been 110 to 120 with a heatsink on after 8 min of moderate to aggressive 3D aerobatics. I did a 15 min nonstop flight before i put the heatsink on, in 50 degree weather and it went up to 135 or so. I haven't tried a sustained flight longer than 8 to 10 min since then, but the heatsink definitely helped some.

The ESC and battery are usually 85 to90 degrees. I expect things will warm up some this summer, but i plan to also put some cooling holes in the canopy. If i have to, ill put a fan in it, but right now it doesn't look like i'll have to. I am also looking forward to getting a second batt pack with the new cells from TP that will be available this spring (reportedly, the new cells allow higher discharge currents at cooler temps!).

Robbie
02-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
rchaas
Senior Heliman
Location: Tulsa, OK

Tom,

Quote 
Because if so, then I'll get the C50-16XL


Evidently the C50-16XL is substantially heavier than the B50, and with the B50, you are already at the upper limits of what will fit in the logo, so i am not sure if the C50 is a good choice. If you look closely at my pics, i had to grind off the sides of the heatsink to allow it to fit b/t the frames. The top of the motor with the wires bent over as depicted allows the canopy to just fit over it. I haven't seen a C50-16XLin the flesh, but the specs make it appear larger, and i'd hate to grind on a heatsink that is part of the motor...there was alot of grit/debris flying around when i did that on the separate heat sink.



Quote 
But where can you find the LiPos in the 8s2p configuration?


They can be purchased from Thunder Power directly. I bought mine from Robert at ehelis.com.

eheli.com

He has some info on the 8s2p setup on his website also, that you might take a look at. I also spoke with a couple of logo fliers who had similar setups before i took the plunge and liked what i heard. So far, i've been pretty happy.

There is some concern about high voltage setups and so many batteries in series, with cells becoming unbalanced. There have been several threads on logoheli.com forum and ezone about this, but it seems that the concerns are theoretical, so far. That hasn't been a problem for me as yet, but only time will tell about that. Lipos are a whole new world for me, but i am enjoying the exploration. I got a Schulze charger which has worked great for charging the thing

Robbie
02-05-2004 Over year old.
 
 
cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

Originally, this thread was about the differences between the C50-13L and the Fun 600-18. I am still interested in that comparison, but what about the Fun 600-17? Why is it that I never seem to see any info about this motor? I too am considering the 8s2p LiPo, but with the Fun 600-17 motor for lower head speed (with heatsink) , and a Schulze 18.46k. Will this combo live?
02-06-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Hacker C50-13L VS Kontronik Fun 600-18 For Logo 10
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