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Off Topics > David Kay Resigns - No WMD in Iraq.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

Go Joey!

Hey, Pal-Rotor, that post was impressively eloquent and i think some is true. the main thing i would dissagree with is the "unique on earth, for his ability to galvanise the hatred of 2 Billion musilims around the globe into a single malevolent force." before i say any more let me say i don't mean any disrespect. I just disagree with that statement.

The reason 911 and much of the other violence we are seeing, is happening is simply that some cleric has convinced a bunch of pimple poping hormone controlled kids into thinking that if they blow themselves up while killing others they get to go to heavin and boink 72 virgins for the rest of eternity.

Do you think Bush had anything to do with that? Do you think he makes these guys horny?

Think about this, if you or anybody else on this planet decided he wants somebody dead he just shoots them. These guys are unique in that they almost always ensure their own death in these attacks. Probably 1/3 of the population in NY are Muslims, so many of the victims of the Trade center attacks were muslims. do they care about that ? Heck no! they want to get laid at any cost!

Yes they teach these guys other weird ideas like 'they are stealing our oil" (nevermind that OPEC controlls it ), and all sorts of other rhetoric to try to build some artificial nobility to their actions, but it really is about sex, not hatred at all.

A couple other things to think about:

The reform movement Iran,

Pakistan hunting down extreemists

Saudi's hunting down extreemists

The fact that we pushed taliban out in a matter of weeks and didn't have to try all that hard.

The cheering crowds when Sadam was captured

The protests that Sadam isn't dead already?

Hatred? certainly, but it is not as big as you think, and not going in the direction you think either.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

PAL-rotor,

There's one fatal flaw in your theory, 9/11 started being planned four years prior to its' execution. Maybe the terrorists were lashing back at Bill Clintons' tendency to launch cruise missiles every time he needed a distraction. Otherwise for you theory to hold true they would have had to know George W. Bush would be president three years before the election ever even took place.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

The issues are complex. Moreover I am pleasantly surprised not to get a backlash of "bloody brit keep your nose out". Thank you for that.

GWB appears power crazed, reckless and lacking in the wits to temper his emotions, especially when viewed from over the pond.

Jesus Christ said: love your enemy and turn the other cheek. I lack the intelligence to predict the outcome of puting this doctrine into practice in this instance, in any case it's too late. I can however see the stark contrast of the Bush policy creating a heartfelt desire for retribution amongst those on the receiving end that will last for many, many generations. Take a look at Northern Ireland what's that, 100 years or so. The arabs and the Jews - thousands of years. Serbs and Croats - 40, 50 years. It is an observerved law of human nature that their grandchildren WILL harbour a desire to kill mine, and yours. We may look like we're steming the tide at the moment, but any twist and turn of the tide of current affairs will have an equal and opposite reaction at some point down the years.

At the same time I can see the means to exact that retribution becoming ever cheaper, ever more effective, and ever more accessible - unabated unless individual freedom of action is compromised to nil (or we literally go out an kill every conceivable oponent and his family) - anyone want that on their conscience?

Not meaning to be petty, but who told you that 9:11 was planned for 4 years. I suspect it was the same guys who told us that Sadam was about to strike us in 45 minutes.

Julian

01-30-2004 Over year old.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

I really cherish the freedom for people to say what they have to say compair and chalange perspectives, and do it without disrespect and meanness. hopefully we can see more of that kind of discussion going on.

GWB apears as not too bright to a lot of folks here too, i support what has been done, but i didn't like how some of it was presented. One of his wiser predisessors said "speak softly but carry a big stick" i think a wiser man would have done the same things, but spoken differently.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

joey.furr
Senior Heliman
Location: Little Rock, AR

NewDaddy

Oh, well then you are absolutely correct...there is no current hard physical evidence of WMD...only the known history.

I also agree that all politicians are (some more than others) self-serving. I will always evaluate everything they say for myself.

I stand with Bush on the war in Iraq, but I do disagree on some of the domestic policies that are being implemented...so at least I'm not a mindless robot!

But I don't think we went to war to confiscate the oil. Iraq was only producing 2% of the worlds oil anyway.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

MAH
Senior Heliman
Location: Galesburg, Il.

Pal-rotor...your post here shows a remarkable ignorance of world
events over the past 20 years.

The statement that 9/11 was an attempt to assasinate GWB is
ludicrous. Bin Laden and his ilk had been hitting US and other
governements interests for years before GWB even entered
politics.

What about the first World Trade center bombing? What about
the US embassy bombings in Kenya and Nigeria? What about
Somalia?

All occurred well before GWB even considered running for President.

What about the bombings since 9/11 in Malaysia, Bali, Saudi Arabia Philipines and other areas?

If Bin Laden was after anyone it would of been Bill Clinton.
Did not Clinton attempt to assasinate Bin Laden with cruise
missle strikes in Sudan and Afghanistan?

"Not meaning to be petty, but who told you that 9:11 was planned for 4 years. I suspect it was the same guys who told us that Sadam was about to strike us in 45 minutes."

The individuals that hijacked the planes used in the 9/11 attacks
were in the US for several years taking flying lessons at various
commercial simulator sites around the country. They moved around
a lot since they often aroused suspicion when requesting only practice
flying straight and level and not landing. Its in the public record.

To find out where Bin Laden came from and why he is like he is
you have to go back to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Thats where his hatred of the West and indeed all non-Islamic
countries started.

Once again the arguements of the GWB haters dont hold water
when held up to the facts.

Mike Hammer
mhammer@grics.net

01-30-2004 Over year old.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

" .... back to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Thats where his hatred of the West and indeed all non-Islamic
countries started. "

GRRRRNT DING!

Sorry, that is incorect. The corect answer is 1095, the first inquisition. Thanks for playing.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

jerrythercpilot
Veteran
Location: --South Florida --

Yeah GWB is not too bright!!! He only managed to put together one of the best cabinets in recent history and has "defanged" the democrats of every issue so much so, that they don't heve a platform anymore.Sounds like a real idiot to me.

Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear so bright UNTIL you hear them speak.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

Newdaddy
Heliman
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

This is a good thread, attacking opinions instead of individuals is good debate.

I still don't agree that GWB's justification for invading Iraq was valid, since it is inconsistent with recent history.

1. The argument that there was a threst of WMD being developed/used was unproven has yet to be proven.

2. (a) I disagree with the suggestion that is was for the Liberation of the Iraqi poeple from a genocidal dictator. The opportunity to do the same thing in Rwanda was not taken. The whole Rwanda thing could have been prevented with far less effort than is being used in Iraq. I am assuming that the USA's UN Ambassaor is able to get the President on the phone.
http://www.canadians.ca/more/profil...eo_dallaire.htm

2.(b) Ditto in Bosnia. You could read this book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ustomer-reviews

Rwanda - No Oil, No Invasion.
Bosnia - No Oil, No Invasion.
Iraq - Oil, Invasion.
9-11 - Bin Ladin Family given presidentail permission to leave Houston in their gold-plated toilet equipped Gulfstream, while Americans sat on runways around the world for weeks. All because GWB's family was oil business partners with OBL's family.

i will speak softly - it was not about oil. it was about oil money. (My opinion.)

James
(Conspiracy Theorist)

01-30-2004 Over year old.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

it really is sloppy support for a oil/war connection to point out places we didn't go to war. Some say we are war mongers then turn around and complain that we don't take every opportunity to blast people to bits. Please be reasonable.

Consider all recent wars we have been involved in:

Gulf war 1, was to liberate a small country, and oil ended up being banned for a decade.

We helped get rid of Milosivetch, oil?
Veitnam, oil?
South Korea, oil?
WW 2 oil?
WW1 oil?

if there is a connection, please support this idea with reasonable facts. the logic you are using is every bit as flawed as me saying we don't fight for oil because:

look at canada, oil, no war
look at saudi, oil no war
look at russia oil no war... bla bla bla... the logic is flawed.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

One thing that has really frustrated me about his whole thing is why didn't anybody translate some of Sadam's speaches?

Like the famous ones they show pictures of all the time where he ends up shooting a rifle into the air. What is he saying prior to that?

was it " ...and we will ballance the trade deficit, and reduce interest rates for small buisness! bang!" ? rha rha!

As isaid before WMD's do not enemies make. its all about words and intent that makes enemies. Thank god most of our enemies of the past don't have much oil!

01-30-2004 Over year old.

FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

MAH

You make a lot of good points. I suspect that the only one of mine that will stand up to cross examination is the term: "final insult".

The rest of it I expect will fall down to a wordy expression of concern regarding the state of affairs we see around us.

I suppose if I was confident that we could just kick these fanatics butts from here to kingdom come to the point where they's never get up again, ever. Then I'd feel more reassured in a selfish kind of a way.

Trouble is I'm not sure you can frighten off suicidal terrorists with the threat or even the demonstration of proportionate opposing force, you just make them and their mates madder and more desperate than they were before. But the fact they're mad as hell and desparate is surely the making of a terrorist. I can't see how to proceed in this direction without the whole thing going cyclic ad infinitum. I believe that you display greater ignorance of history than I in suggesting otherwise.

We've put up with terrorism in Ireland/Northern Ireland, some might call it paramilitary action or whatever for years. I believe there are some parallells with Vietnam, in the sense that the enemy could walk in plain clothes amongst the population at large. You can't fight that without committing an atrocity greater than that of the terrorist - i.e. wipe out the lot of them indiscriminately. History has show the extraordinary difficulty of liberating an entire population that does not want to be liberated or subdued. Both the Kaiser and Hitler tried it with us and despite being bombed to bits we wern't having any of it.

I can also see the perspective that we (British) actually invited the onset of paramilitary action in Northern Ireland by failing to remove ourselves from their territory (and still haven't). Same could be said of America itself where in fact we were chucked out - and probably only forgiven for being there in the first place because the Pilgrim Fathers and a great proportion of colonists were actually Brits to begin with. History has a long memory.

The one that impresses me most though is India. We were chucked out of there without a fight by a little man in a loincloth called Ghandi, we went with our heads hung in shame and we are still apologising to India with concessions of all kinds to this day - our corporations are ofshoring 1000s of jobs there yet our goverment is paralyzed to act, even defending the practice. That my friend is real power. Tyrants, and I'm afraid that includes Bush, will come and go, their bullying will reverberate to the sum of nothing. On the other hand Ghandi and the phenominal following that he inspired turned the other cheek, literally, and won absolutely, with no come-back. We still think of Ghandi (our enemy if you can possibly call him that - our opponent might be more accurate) with profound respect, even affection. I propose it would take an infinitely more powerful statesman than GWB to have that affect on our current enemies - at best he will beat them back for a while but in so doing he will leave a legacy of countless more individuals with a searing need for vengeance. I for one am not comfortable with this. The other possible answer: genocide (Pol Pot, Hitler et al) has been attempted in history, most people are not comfortable with that either, nor did it work out for either of the above.

Julian

01-30-2004 Over year old.

MAH
Senior Heliman
Location: Galesburg, Il.

PAL-rotor...

"Trouble is I'm not sure you can just hit terror with opposing force without the whole thing going cyclic ad infinitum. I believe that you display greater ignorance of history than I in suggesting otherwise."

Very true. Violence often (and usually does) beget more violence.

Im not at all ignorant of history in this respect. For a vivid
example just look at the Israel/Palestine conflict. Israel has
had no effect on terrorism with their policy of like response.
In fact they have really made it worse.

Unfortunately terrorism is an effective weapon. Whether you
are labeled a terrorist or a patriot often depends on which
side of the conflict you are on.

But 9/11 wasnt just a terrorist act. It was a declaration of war.
The war on terror will be long and difficult. And ultimately it may
be to no avail. But we didnt seek this war out. It was thrust upon us.

Mike Hammer
Galesburg,Il

01-30-2004 Over year old.

FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

- but has anyone actually stopped and asked these idiots what they're lashing out at and why.

Who would be demented enough to declare war on the USA - unless they already felt their relationship with the USA was already so intollerable that it could not get any worse no matter the consequencs.

I just don't buy the idea that some day a load of guys club together, pick the country with the most enormous arsenal and take a large swipe at it just because the're really stupid and like dying for no reason.

Heck I'd like to know what the F**** is going on, anyone?

01-30-2004 Over year old.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

Its all about sex.

No i am not kidding, read previous post.

i tried to talk with one of the Arab/Americans about this in annother thread, but a bunch of rude putz's chased him away, before any of the rest of us could get past the rehtoric, and find out more.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

I recall a trascript or a tape of Ronald Regan. It went along the lines of "gee, do the Russians really believe we are angling for a first-srike nuclear war with them - I think we should explain to them we would never do that".

Not long after there wasn't a cold war any more.

If we don't even know what the other guy's problem is, how are we supposed to deal constructivly with him.

JC

01-30-2004 Over year old.

FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

spaceman - that's all very well but it does'nt change a lot even if true.

So let's say they get off by the notion of blowing us up. Why us?

01-30-2004 Over year old.

MAH
Senior Heliman
Location: Galesburg, Il.

Newdaddy...

"I still don't agree that GWB's justification for invading Iraq was valid, since it is inconsistent with recent history.

1. The argument that there was a threst of WMD being developed/used was unproven has yet to be proven."

You need to study history in a little more detail. I know history is no
longer taught in schools. So you have to educate yourself a little.

In 1980-81 Iraq proceeeded to build a fast breeder nuclear reactor.
This type of reactor has only one purpose. It produces highly
enriched U235 and PU239 from low grade U238. These are
weapons grade isotopes. This technology was purchased from
the French.

In 1981 Israel bombs this facility before it can go into production.

Several attempts were made during the 80s by Iraqi scientists and Iraqi brokers to purchase parts for a gas centrifuge. The latest attempt
was as recently as 1999. A gas centrifuge is just the thing you need
to separate fissionable materials from commercial uranium fuel rods.

Parts and plans for this centrifuge were found buried in a scientists
garden near Baghdad.

This shows both desire and intent to develop nuclear weapons.
Imagine that Israel had not destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981. What would have happened when Iraq invaded Kuwait? With a nuclear arsenal at Saddam's disposal, would the U.S. have attacked? As it was, war against a nonnuclear Iraq was authorized by the U.S. Senate by a mere five votes. Had Saddam had nukes in 1991, he would probably today be king of all Arabia.

During the 80s Iraq possessed and used mustard gas, phosgene, VX and Sarin against the Iranians and there own people. By there own records they had tons of this material. As well as botulism toxin, ricin and anthrax.

No record of where this material went exists. At various times Iraqi officials denied ever having this stuff at other times they claim it was destroyed. On numerous occasions UN weapons inspectors requested they be taken to the site where this stuff was said to have been destroyed. No evidence was ever offered or found.

Where did it all go? Just vanish into thin air? Or are the Iraqis a
bunch of bumbing fools that cant keep track of their own arsenals?

All they had to do to avoid war was provide some (or any) evidence
that they had disposed of their WMDs. But they were unwilling to do so.
Instead they decided to walk a tightrope. They cooperated with the UN
just enough All the while keeping the threat of WMDs alive thinking that
would protect them from invasion by the US or retribution from neighboring states.

Mike Hammer
Galesburg,Il

01-30-2004 Over year old.

spaceman spiff
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson

PAL

Thats what i was trying to find out, but i suspect its a lot like chasing windmill dragons. the bigger the enemy the more bold it will appear to Ala so they get Brittany spears, not Ruth Buzzy.

Some of the rehtoric is "they are stealing our oil" , they want " US out of our land", and my personal favorite, "you created Osama, so now you deserve what you get"...

One of the other things i noticed is they are very preoccupied with the notion that all americans think that Bush is smart, that our country is perfect, so some of them, have an "oh you think you are so great" chip on their shoulder. makes it a real chalange to have anything but a preprogrammed soundbite exchange type of conversation.

01-30-2004 Over year old.

FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

"when brainwashed populations collide". Despite all this soundbite stuff (with the greatest respect MAH did the US soundbite earlier .... we didnt want war it was forced upon is) I believe that the direction and momentum of the battle does not rest in the hands of individuals who have been taught to hate eachother. That is a matter for the individuals doing the teaching. I'm interested in the reason why the two populations are being taught to hate eachother.

Yup, the key bit is big ENEMY (or enmity). So far as I'm aware we've got some pretty wide cultural differences - but so long as they mind their own business I'm sure I'd be happy for us lot to mind ours.

So they want to negotiate on oil, land occupancy and Brittney Spears. Should be a deal in there somewhere. Sure there's not an issue with us negotiating millions of them out of the proceeds of their natural reserves so they're starving and we're throwing out color TVs to buy plasmas?

Oh what the hell, carry on George, just blow them up repeatedly until they've had enough. That'll sort it.

I can't be certain about that, bit I could murder a cup of tea though.

good night

Julian

01-30-2004 Over year old.

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Off Topics > David Kay Resigns - No WMD in Iraq.

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