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Off Topics > Bush and M.J. most hated?

DrScoles
Veteran
Location: Redmond WA

RickC, Clinton??? He was the luckiest president on the planet.... He got lucky enough to be in office during the internet boom... The older I get the more conservative I get. I work too hard for my money for a dumbass liberal to piss it all away on people who won't help themselves....

Don't get me started about unions.... I worked in a car plant full time for a little over a year, UAW member.... So I have firsthand knowledge of how unions work, and I can criticize them because I was there. Unions are the number one reason why jobs are moving overseas...period.

You want more money, go to college... Don't wanna hear **** about family to support or poor parents...blah blah blah...the money is there to borrow.... I know, I owe about $200,000.00 for my education.

Ok, feel better now

Mike

01-24-2004 Over year old.

jerrythercpilot
Veteran
Location: --South Florida --

Dragon2115

You must be the only conservative in NE!!! Way to go!!!

Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear so bright UNTIL you hear them speak.

01-24-2004 Over year old.

rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

Quote
Don't get me started about unions....

One of the best things unions have done is make companies provide safe working envirements. Many years ago there were no safety devices on machines, no guards, if you lost a finger, hand or such they would replace you with the next one in line. The air quality in some factories suffered greatly. If you didn't want to do the job you were down the road. Many fatalities were brought on by 16 even 20 hour work days with pour conditions. No overtime pay, no insurance (no dental insurance, meaning all your crowns and bridges would be much less), no job security.

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I worked in a car plant full time for a little over a year, UAW member....

Did you hire on at minimum wage, hell no because thousands before you went hungry and let bills pile up during stikes to get you the wages bennifits and working conditions you were so ungreatful for. UAW unions may seem weak in my opinion, to many thought to be brothers but during hard times some turn out to be Suck-Ass SCAB's willing or allowed to cross the picket line. Do that in some areas and a price is paid.

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You want more money, go to college...

This is true but is also funny, I seen grads that may be book smart but are as dumb as a rock in the field. No common sense. Couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the bottom. They can keep the computer systems for large companies flowing smoothly but can not figure out how to put a control pushrod in a plank. I see your a Dentist, I'm sure you feel you have top control of your implements. So do the ones that built the roads and bridges leading to your business.

Rick

01-24-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Quote
One of the best things unions have done is make companies provide safe working envirements.

Absolutely, but that function has been replaced by OSHA and most states have labor laws. Unions at one time served a vital function by giving power to workers so they weren't taken advantage of by unscrupulous employers. Unfortunately since then they have evolved into psyeudo political parties. Many have shown just how corrupt they have become by acting more like a legalized form of the mob.

Here's an example of how even reputable unions can hurt us today by costing the company money. A few years ago I was on an installation job for an ATE system my company had sold to Raytheon. When we got there we were taken to the room where the equipment was to be setup. We then waited 2 hours while they found a mover to bring the equipment from the shipping dock to the room. We then waited 2 more hours for the electrician to show up to plug the damn thing into the wall!!! Since it was a union job they wouldn't let us touch it. No s***, we had to wait for an electrician just to plug it in!!! Now take the teams' hourly rate , times 4 hours, and you've just wasted 12 man hours to the tune of several hundred dollars. A half day job turned into an all day affair. Now add up this kind of waste throughout the company and you'll start to see why a cruise missile costs the American taxpayer one million dollars apiece.

Btw, that also cost my company money because we weren't back at work doing what we should have been doing.

The same thing happens in your UAW auto plants. Why should a guy that simply puts 5 lug nuts on a wheel make $17/hr? That's outrageous. He has no particular skill that couldn't be found in a trained monkey. So why is he making so much? Simple, the union drove his hourly rate through the roof. And they wonder why more and more products are being manufacturered offshore. They've priced themselves right out of the market.

01-24-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

Quote
Simple, the union drove his hourly rate through the roof.

I think the wages were raised to keep in line with the cost of living. The union made sure he was not overlooked when everything went up around him from gas to milk and utilities.

Rick

01-25-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

DrScoles
Veteran
Location: Redmond WA

I agree, unions were very necessary in the past...but like all good ideas, they get abused/distorted/exploited. RickC you think the UAW is soft?? Wow, I thought they had an enormous amount of power.. At the car plant, if someone was asked to take a drug test...the guy could simply say I don't feel good and go home... The union had IMO, way too much power.

I know there are trade unions that protect skilled workers... but a 18 year old kid with zero post-high school education getting a job doing something that takes zero skill(assembling cars) making over $50k a year....something wrong there.... And people wonder why these companies seek out of country manufacturing....

Mike

01-25-2004 Over year old.

Woody218
Veteran
Location: Bismarck, ND

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I think the wages were raised to keep in line with the cost of living. The union made sure he was not overlooked when everything went up around him from gas to milk and utilities.

And why did all that stuff around him go up? Other union workers in other trades drove up the prices by striking.

Gravity Always Wins!

01-25-2004 Over year old.

rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

Quote
And why did all that stuff around him go up? Other union workers in other trades drove up the prices by striking.

Get real.... All the entire unions combined are just a small percentage of the larbor work force.

Rick

01-25-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

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I know there are trade unions that protect skilled workers... but a 18 year old kid with zero post-high school education getting a job doing something that takes zero skill(assembling cars) making over $50k a year....something wrong there....

I can see your point there, we have a car maunufacture about 35 miles from here. I'm not sure what their scale is. A friend of mine has a girlfriend that works there and she makes good money but also works a lot of hours doing so.

Heck a UPS driver makes over 50K a year, I'm glad though he does when he drops off a new heli.

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At the car plant, if someone was asked to take a drug test...the guy could simply say I don't feel good and go home...

In my trade any accident or injury is followed up by a manditory drug test. It's in the contract, even radom testing can be performed. You say no and your off the job or can not work for the employer until you comply.

Rick

01-25-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

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I think the wages were raised to keep in line with the cost of living. The union made sure he was not overlooked when everything went up around him from gas to milk and utilities.

You miss my point. If the union were not involved he would have been making $8/hr which would be fair given the difficulty of the task rather than $17/hr which is totally out of line for what he does. There's nothing wrong with a cost of living increase. But when the rate/hr is so far out of line to begin with, and then to strike for more, that's rediculous. Not to mention it's not in line with the rest of the labor force when the union strikes for a 5% CoL increase when the rest of the work force is getting 1.5% CoL increases. That is one of the things that drives inflation.

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Get real.... All the entire unions combined are just a small percentage of the larbor work force.

That may be true, but it still has a sweeping effect on the cost of goods and services. Lets take for example selling a widget. The sales staff might not be union but the people that built the machines that make the widget are. So are the people that built the truck that delivers the wiget to the store. The driver may be as well. What about the people that maintain the property the store is located in? If they're union then the cost to rent the store space costs more. See how this snowballs? If each of the unions that indirectly effect the final cost of that widget keep striking for unrealistic wages, driving up what their employer charges to the customer, then eventually it will cost too much to produce the widget and the customers will look for a less expensive alternative. In response the seller of the widget will look for a less expensive way to produce the widget, i.e. offshore labor.

Now don't get me wrong, there are problems on the white collar side of things too. Top executives make far more than they should. There is a huge gap between the wage of the lowest paid employee and the highest paid employee of most U.S. companies. There is a very interesting book out there (I forget the title) about how management has grown since WW2. It used to be that there would be one manager for every 100 workers. Now there is more like one for every ten. That in itself is a major problem, and one that also drives the cost of everything up. When both sides of this equation (union and management) get out of control everybody looses in the long run because of the increased rate of inflation.

01-25-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

I like the Widget stories.

Every heard the Super Wal*Wart Widget story?

Wal*Wart searches for towns where widget are selling, there maybe 3 or 4 widget stores already located in that town. Wal*Wart loves this because this is proof that the market in that area is good for widget sales.

The very successful Mom and Pop widget stores already existing buy widgets through their distributor for 3.99 a widget. Online competition and MAP pricing is such that Mom and Pop can only mark their widget up by 20% thus having a price of 4.79 for the widgets they sell.

When Wal*Wart opens, they advertise their widgets for 2.99 as an everyday low price. Wal*Warts cost is 3.49 per widget because they buy great volumes and has a warehouse distribution center to store the widgets until needed.

Selling the widget below cost is not good for most stores, but Wal*Wart makes money on other items thus supporting their widget plan.

Mom and Pop has a shelve full of Widgets sitting in their store, the word is out that Wal*Wart’s prices are the best in the area for the beloved widget.

With no widget sales at Mom and Pops, the banker calls and asks about payment on the note for the building at the bank, the wholesaler calls because the bill for the widgets have not been paid.

Mom and Pop has to liquidate and shut the doors after being in business for years in that community. Now Wal*Wart stands alone in the town for widget sales since the competition had to lock the doors. With high demand for widgets, Wal*Wart raises the widget prices to 4.99 and the whole time looking what other items in the store they can lower prices on to force the other competitors out of business and so on and so on.

Rick

01-25-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Absolutely Rick, that's business. Home Depot did it. Loehs did it. Target did it. Unfortunately business is not usually pretty, or nice.

What usually keeps the little guy in business is the service end it. Walmart, Target, Loehs, etc may have the lowest price but when it comes to service they're dumb as a post. With Mom & Pops' widget store you can talk to someone that knows widgets and you can talk to them about whether widget A or widget B is better for your needs. In the big stores you're on your own to figure it out.

I'll tell you where there's going to be another "super Walmart widget" story, the semiconductor industry over the next 10 years. China is bringing 11 new 300mm wafer fabs online during that time. Because the company is government subsidized they will be able to sell below cost for long enough to drive other manufacturers in the world out of business. We saw this before with "chip dumping" several years ago. It's going to happen again if we aren't careful.

01-25-2004 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

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