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Ron’s HeliProz South . Century Helicopter . MTA Hobbies

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e-Electric Motors & Controllers > Need help choosing motor and ESC for Logo 10!
 
 
Jason Merkle
Senior Heliman
Location: Champaign, IL

After a few weeks of having my Logo 10 kit (Thanks Tony @Eflightpacks.com - youre still the best!), I just cant let it sit anymore! The time has come to order a motor and ESC for it and Ive narrowed the choices...

What really has gotten my attention is the idea of using hot motors with smaller pinions and cell counts for performance. A lot like the basic idea of the JR Voyager - small high RPM motor, small pinion, low cell count for good performance. Just before Gary Wright posted his results of the Logo on 10 cells I was thinking right along his lines as well - I was thinking of a high power motor suitable for 10-12 cells and still a small sized pinion. Better yet, using 10 cells I could use my Schulze 45He WITH BEC eliminating even more weight not to mention using only 10 cells the Logo would be a true lightweight! Lighter would be even better as long as the power would be there...

Gary is using the Hacker B50-11L on 10 cells. Sounds like he is getting the performance I want on a LOW cell count! I definitely want 3D and I most definitely want 5 minutes using the new Panasonic High Voltage 3000s I picked up. Right now the B50-11L looks best on 10-12 cells using a 14-17 tooth pinion. Thats the first choice...

Then, Fred Bronk (On the EZonemag.com discussion forum) posted wonderful results using the $99 Mega AC 22/30/2 motor. This motor has a KV of 1770 - only 30 RPM less than the Kontronik Fun 600-18 and the price is sure nice! Looks like 12-14 cells on this motor would be very nice for 3D, but it isnt quite hot enough for just 10 cells. Still, it is an idea...

And the proven 3D motor is the Kontronik Fun 600-18. 12-14 cells seems like the requirement on this motor and its the hottest of the bunch I believe. Its only tad more powerful than the Mega, but seems to be a LOT beefier in construction...

So here are my final choices (I think!) - help me decide:

1) Hacker B50-11L w/ Schulze 45He first on 10 cells with BEC. Next with a Schulze 45Ho on 12 cells, no BEC

2) Mega AC 22/30/2 w/Schulze 45Ho on 12-14 cells

3) Kontronik Fun 600-18 w/ Schulze 45Ho on 12-14 cells OR with a Kontronik BEAT ESC

What motors do you guys think will be best and should I go with the Schulze 45Ho or the new Kontronik BEAT ESCs? Remember, I want all out 3D - 10 cells would be great with BEC, but am willing to run 12 or 14 cells (13 even Glen ) if need be. Will be running 3 JR 3421 digital minis on the CCPM, a 460T HH gyro, JR 810G high speed digital on the tail and an R700 receiver.

Thanks guys, oh the agony of so many choices these days....

Jason
04-09-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Augusto
rrAdvertiser
Location: San Diego, CA

The lower cell count will definitely have an improvement in flight performance due to the lower overall weight.

Using a bigger pinion will allow you to deliver the same number of watts because even though the voltage stays the same the current increases. In other words you can get the same power out of 12 cells with a bigger pinion than with 14 cells with a smaller pinion but with lower weight which translates in better 3D performance.

I would go for Gary's recomendation. We have spoken about it and it seems his results are really amazing.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate
04-09-2002 Over year old.
 
 
dchinww
Senior Heliman
Location: Seattle, Washington

LVRCFlyer,

Please let us know what combo you decided on and how well it works. I've decided on a Logo 10 also but haven't figured out the motor and esc question.

Daniel
04-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
gwright
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Fl

I've changed cells, cellcount, and ESC's a few times, and the current setup is the B50 11L on 12 cell panasonic high voltage 3000's, with the 45Ho controller. 80% on the governer in idle-up 2 and 65% in idle-up 1. In the 80% mode, I'm turning the head 1820 and I can 3D it constantly for around 6 minutes, then slack off for a couple minutes to do climbs followed by autos, then some general "fun stuff" that I like to do,.. medium speed couple inches off the ground figure eights and circles with alternating pirouettes and sideways/backwards segments. Total flight time is going just over 8 minutes. Full 3D the whole time (asynch loops, piro tumbles/loops/rolls/etc.) gets it down to about 6 to 6.5 minutes, can stretch to 7 if flown very smoothly (sharp cyclic commands EAT battery life due to the surge current, gotta fly an electric smoothly). Motor and controller are very warm at the end of a flight, but not enough to warrant concern.
04-16-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Alan Szabo Sr
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

ESC

Hey Gary, Are you running any type of fan for the ESC? My 20 can 3d all day long in the hot heat here in Vegas, but the 10 is shutting down.
04-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Jason Merkle
Senior Heliman
Location: Champaign, IL

Hey Alan and Gary!

Alan: Glad to see you have the Logo 10 and 20 going strong! Im going to be talking to RC Direct about our store becoming a dealer for Mikado helis. Mostly I would plan to stock the Logo 10 and parts. Sorry to hear about the ESC shutting down - which do you have? Im guessing it is the Kontronik Fun 600-18 with the SMILE 40-6-18 on 14 cells. I emailed Ralf the Logo designer and he says when using 14 cells it is a must to run the new Kontronik BEAT 50 ESC for hard 3D - the SMILE 40 and 50 will overheat. You may talk to John about getting a BEAT 50 ESC as soon as he has some in stock!

Gary: Thanks so much for the motor info! I think Im pretty well sold on the Hacker B50-11L motor along with a Schulze 45He ESC for the governor mode. I will also look into trying one of the Jeti/Hacker 70 amp ESCs with "normal" flight curves to see if there is a difference in power. Did you get to test this out yet (Heli/governor ESC vs the regualr ESC?)? Also, what pinion are you using on the 11L and 12 cells?

Thanks again for the info Gary - cant wait to get my E3D flying finally and get the motor/ESC ordered for my Logo. Do you think its pretty solid that the 11L and 45Ho on 12 Panasonic HV 3000 NiMHs is one of the best ways to go for all out 3D on the 10?

Jason
04-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
heli_3d
Heliman
Location: Colorado Springs

ESC shutdown on Logo 20

Alan - what motor/ESC are you flying in your Logo 20? I have a Pletty 300/25/A3 and a Schulze 35ho in my Logo 20, and I managed to get the ESC to overheat and shutdown a couple of weeks ago. I was working on some pirouetting flips (thanks Agusto!), and after a few less-than-graceful bailouts, I found myself doing my first dead-motor auto with my Logo.

Steve
04-17-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gwright
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Fl

Alan,.. the smile didn't work,..overheated, finally popped,.. Hacker master series 40-3P no work,..added CPU fan,.. worked fine, but no governer (not a heli ESC). The Schulze 45Ho has worked flawlessly without any overtemp shuttoffs. I'm not running a fan on the 45Ho on the logo 10. I've taken some readings with a wattmeter and the heli on a stand and you'd be AMAZED at how much surge current you can draw with the kontronics motor when inputting cyclic. Mine is hovering in the low 20 amp range, full collective is right at 32 amps,.. and with some cyclic it'll burst up in the high 40's, over 50 for brief periods. With the kontronics (fun600-18) motor the surge current goes WAY above those numbers and the rpms drop severely with cyclic inputs. The much higher KV hacker with the tiny pinion has the grunt to pull through the high cyclics without loading down nearly as much, and strangely enough it doesn't draw as much current in the peaks. All that being said,..you can't jerk it around like you do a glow machine. I get roughly 5 minutes flying it like that,..whereas I get 50% more flight time if I'm smooth enough to not make the blades "talk" during the flight. Same maneuvers, but smooth, and not banging sticks. If you're overheating the ESC, you're probably drawing lots of current with large cyclic inputs. It's always hot here,.. and I've flown it when the temps were in the high 80's without any overheating with my current setup.
04-17-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Jason Merkle
Senior Heliman
Location: Champaign, IL

Gary - what size pinion did you settle on using with the 11L and 12 cells?

Jason
04-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
gwright
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Fl

I have a 13 tooth pinion on it right now (smallest they have with 5mm ID).
04-17-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Alan Szabo Sr
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Gary which motor in current config.

Gary you say your using the Schulze 45Ho right now but which motor are you using. Im using the same ESC with the kontronics (fun600-18) and its going into shut down just moving it around. The Logo 20 is woking flawless.
04-18-2002 Over year old.
 
 
steph280
Key Veteran
Location: Irvine, California

Gary I read you were testing to see if governor mode is less efficient or less power than standard mode. Is it true?

What frequency mode are you running in the 45He?
04-18-2002 Over year old.
 
 
gwright
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Fl

mode 2 on the 45Ho

alan, it's a Hacker B50 11L motor. It gets very warm, so does the controller, but not nearly as warm as the fun600-18. I gave up on the fun600-18. It looks better in specs in motocalc,..but I don't believe those specs. I get more power and longer flights, without the loading during cyclic inputs,..with the hacker. It's not a small difference either, but a very noticable one.
04-18-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Jason Merkle
Senior Heliman
Location: Champaign, IL

Thanks again Gary! Your advice and info is always greatly appreciated! After a lot of tossing around motor and ESC choices for a few weeks, I finally ordered the Hacker B50-11L heli, Schulze 45Ho ESC and 13 tooth pinion last night. Cant wait to fly it

Alan - will you be flying the Logos at the NURSHA demo next Thursday? I hope to see them! I was honored to be asked to fly the new Kyosho Caliber 30 for Great Planes that day. For those who thought a Raptor was ugly, the new Caliber is worse Reports say it flies very well though! I think the demo next week with the Logos flying would be a BIG selling point for Mikado! Hopefully you have the 10 up and going - I already know you have a KILLER Logo 20 set up!

Jason
04-19-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Phoenix-IT
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, TX

Hey guys...

The Hacker is a much better motor than the Kontronic. I have a B50-15L & Future 45Ho and haven't had any problems really. I've been participating in the heli forum on ezonemag.com for about a year now. (With the cost of this hobby, I thought long and hard about doing it.) The talk lately has been the rampant failures of the Kontronic speed controllers.... there have been reports of over 100 Amp peaks being recorded during major pitch changes with the 600-18 & Smile. Seems to me this is where your power is going Gary. Some peoples Smiles have been failing during their second hover with relatively low headspeed. Thus far I am not impressed with Kontronic at all, I've heard of maybe 1 Future failure for every 10 Smile failures. Futures are hard to find at times and the place I see them in stock the most at is fxaeromodels.com. Fitz is a great guy, and as far as I know he's the only guy in the US that carries the Joker at present time.

Mine always seems to fly for about 7 minutes regardless of how I do it... but I definatly don't tax the motor in any way... I've only been flying for a month or so.... best I can do is full collective climbouts and fast circuits. (Really need to pay more attention to the stadium lighting when I do this. )

Hey LVRC, post your impressions about the Caliber 30 after you try it. I was thinking of getting one.... One review had said it was powerful with flight times of 25 minutes or so... If it checks out I will really be relieved to have something that stays in the air longer than the Logo.

Chad
04-19-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Alan Szabo Sr
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

NURSHA demo

Jason, Im hoping to be there Thursday. Ill be working on the 10 tomorrow. I just put longer servo arms on it for more pitch. I had to small of output arms on it originally. I hat to cut the windshield to have some air hitting the heat sink on the esc, but if that’s what its going to take, then it must be, we got to remember were going to be using them in a heck of a lot hotter ambient temp then most people will. Ill do some flying with it with the canopy off first Saturday to see if it makes the whole battery run with out going into thermal shut down. The 20 is going awesome. There pretty tough too. Im not sure if you head the other day I was doing my routine and in a pirouette tumble coming out inverted it must of hit some bad air and fell to the asphalt ant hit inverted pretty hard, (flat on the blades), bounced back up and flipped it around, and landed. Looked at it on the runway, with the top of the Vblades scuffed the full length on both. Lifted it up to a hover to check it out for any shakes, none to be found so I proceeded to fly the rest of the 3d routine for the next 5 min. Pretty tough machine. I left the blades on it for show and tell. Hope to see you Thursday.
04-19-2002 Over year old.
 
 
steph280
Key Veteran
Location: Irvine, California

wow that is impressive. Them Vblades sure are strong! Both the Logo 10 and 20 has beefy main shafts, but I didn't expect the heli to be flyable after bouncing off the ground like that! Alan you should take some pictures and send them to Mikado and VBlades.

I am finding the B50L-15T is not as strong of motor for the Logo as I expected. I am running 12 cell with 15T pinion and mode 3 on the 45He. I think I will need to make up some 14cell packs to try, or get a 11 turn like what Gary has.

My Logo 10 has this shake I couldn't get rid of. I have balanced everything on the head, tried different wood/fiberglass blades. Only thing I havent done is taking out the main shaft and spindle to check for straightness. The heli has not been crashed, not even landed hard, so I didn't think that was necessary. But it looks like I'll have to do it as I have exhausted all possibilities.

Hey those Caliber 30 don't look that bad, looks like the cousin of Raptor. Wife kept on calling my Rappy "The Alien Helicopter". I wonder why?

Stephen
04-19-2002 Over year old.
 
 
gwright
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Fl

Jeff myers video'd a flight last sunday, and posted a minute of it on his website www.koolflightsystems.com . He only put in there a bit of backwards slow circles, some pirouetting tumbles, and an inverted hover. Not much, and nothing to see the power from, but in the piro tumbles, you'll notice the head doesn't slow down much if at all, and that's about as much load as you'll ever put on a machine without doing funnels.
04-23-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
bjpaul
Heliman
Location: Longwood, FL USA

Gary, a question for you. Is the govenor mode part of the reason we are blowing up esc's? When you load up the rotor head the govenor just asks for more and more current to maintain head speed. The transient peak could be quite high, like you are seeing with the whattmeter and the Kontronik motor.

With an old fashoned "throttle curve" all you get is what the curve calls for and you lose head speed, but would not have the peaks.

Just a thought.

Brad
04-28-2002 Over year old.
 
 
E-gpeden
Senior Heliman
Location: Lake Louise, Alberta, Canada

Another reason that ESC's are blowing up lots is that Kontronik ESCs turn off all safeties in heli mode. This "keep the heli flying at all costs" approach does not seem much better to me:

Safeties on - motor stops a bit sooner (unless motor is blipped to send signal to ease off) and you do an autorotation.

Safeties off - motor stops, you do the same autorotation, PLUS you get to buy a new ESC.

Hmmmmmmm.

Cheers!
Glen
04-28-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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e-Electric Motors & Controllers > Need help choosing motor and ESC for Logo 10!
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