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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > GV-1 with PCM-10X

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Mr Bill Meador is the Gas Engine Guru, my gasser engine has never run so well!
Now all I need is Governer Guru, anyone fit the Bill?
I have just purchased and installed a new governor and Statorgator on my x-cell gasser with a G231 motor & a JR 8700G on throttle.
I have got a real simple set-up to start with, all I have is the Governor speed wire going to Aux 4, and the governor on/off going to Gear Channel.
I basically want a system that enables me to switch the governor on or off at my command whatever flight mode I am in. I do not want an automatic set-up with the flight mode switch that alters the head speed for different positions (maybe sometime in the future), I do have however the ability to tweak the head speed using the Aux 4 VR pot.
I normally run a head speed of 1550 - 1600 with this new engine (g231) and she runs great.
I thought I would get a governor just to optimise performance, and take some of the guesswork out of the throttle/pitch curve relationship as I do find it quite hard to determine engine bogging or engine loading with these gas engines, hence the governor.
I have set up the governor as per book, i.e idle limit/high limit & stop, stick switching off etc. I have the throttle linkage set as per Bill Meador which gives me a headspeed in the hover of 1550 at 35% throttle, my throttle ATV's are 120%/120% and the engine has just been broken in and is running sweet right through the whole rev range.
THE PROBLEM...........
When I start the engine and bring her up to hover RPM, I switch on the governor and nothing happens until I bang in some real power (3/4 stick) and then the governor kicks in and locks on to a head speed of around 1800 and holds it. Now, given that I have set the head speed of 1550 in the governor, why does it not kick in until 3/4 stick and then go above the set RPM? When I alter the Aux 4 pot it seems to have no effect even though when I go through the menus on the GV-1 and check the S2 number, it corresponds with the pot exactly and moves up and down as I alter the pot.
When I go to the CD screen on the governor, it always tells me the governor is on as soon as the throttle has moved up only a tiny amount, but in reality the governor is not working until I am screaming the engine. I realise the governor needs the engine to be at least 70% of SET rpm, and the switch to be on before it will work, but mine seems to need 110% of set rpm before it works!
I am even tempted to go into the 'Hidden Menus' and alter the 70% value and bring it down to say 60%, but I would rather fix the problem first, and play later

If any of this post makes any sense to anyone out there I would be very grateful for some help as I have just about had it.
I have been around in circles for the last 2 days and my brain cannot handle any more, I wish I had a brain reset button!
Thanks in advance!

09-20-2003 Over year old.

jb_turner
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Do a Search in here...I had a similar issue..

09-21-2003 Over year old.

smosher
Senior Heliman
Location: canada

If you've set the GV-1 for 1550 and are getting an RPM of 1800, it might be that your gear ratio is set wrong. This would mean you have to reach 70% of 1800, not 1550, for it to kick in. Just a thought.

I'm running the same setup on an X-cell gas except for the engine and it works great although I go have to go above the hover point to get the governor to kick in. Running the same RPM. My gear ratio is 6.43:1 and I'm running the stock G-23 & Stator Gator sensor - RPM works out perfectly when tached.

09-22-2003 Over year old.

rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

Here is the setup I used, I found it online and it worked great.

Rick

JR 10X and GV1
RX channels

Thro = GV-1 Throttle
Aux 4 = GV-1 Aux RPM
Aux 3 = gyro sensitivity - use code 44 to adjust
Gear = GV-1 on/off
GV-1

rS1 = 1550
rS2 = 1650
rS3 = 1750
SWPt = It should show On or Off depending on your gear switch postion
StSw = On or Off depending on your throttle stick position - not inhibited
Ensure you set your limits correctly - I found my idle had to be set with the stick just below 1/4 stick in order to get the governor to shut-off correctly. You need to ensure your throttle curves in stunt 1 and 2 never drop below the governor off setting - you can check this through the SWCd screen which shows the governor condition for the current switch and stick settings so play with the switches and throttle in each flight mode to ensure the screen says 'off' when you want the governor off
TX mixes

Code 51 = Gear-Aux4 (-100% +0%, no offset)
assign this to the flight modes you require by pressing the 'page' button on the mix screen
Code 52 = Gear-Aux4 (+0% +0%, no offset)
assign this to the flight modes you require by pressing the 'page' button on the mix screen
Code 53 = Gear-Aux4 (+100% +0%, no offset)
assign this to the flight modes you require by pressing the 'page' button on the mix screen
Code 44 = Auto, values are whatever gain settings you want
Assign the values to flight modes by pressing the 'Page' button
This gives me:

Auto selection of head speed with flight mode through the Aux
Manual selection of governor on/off is with Gear switch
Adjustment of head speed through Aux 4 pot
Auto selection of gyro sensitivity with flight mode
Governor shuts down when throttle output is below about 30% or using the Gear switch

Instead of using all 51, 52, 53 mixes, you could use 56 mix= #FMODE-Aux4 (-33%,0%,+33%) assign this to all flight mode

09-22-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Thanks guys for your input.
I have tried various different ways of connecting up the GV-1 with the RX, including the method posted, which all seem to work when the model is static just using the cd screen (ie. the rotor speed S1, 2 & 3 all move in relation to the flight mode switch etc, with adjustment on the Aux. 4 Pot.
The problem is that when put to the test with the Heli up and running, the Governor seems to ignore these settings and race on up to around 1800 no matter what the settings are.
The governor is definately kicking in and locking on although I have to be near 3/4 stick to make it work.
I have been into the hidden menus and altered to 70% value down to 60% which has made the governer kick in at half stick now which is an improvement, but still does not answer the problem.
Another thing I have noticed is after I have been flying, I shut down the engine DO NOT switch off the radio gear, I then go through the GV-1 menu to get the MAX rpm page and this always reads ZERO.
I was under the impression this should give me the highest rpm for the duration of the last flight? Am I right on this?
The governor is definately picking up the sensor as I get a good rpm reading on the default screen whilst the engine is running, and when I switch to Engine RPM mode, she idles at around 3200 which I guess is normal.
I am still in the dark on this one, and have search RR to find a comparable problem and diagnosis, but no luck as yet!
Any Help very much appreciated.

09-22-2003 Over year old.

garyl
Senior Heliman
Location: taxachussetts

Check Your throttle curve, The GV-1 will not come on at or below 20%.
This is a common problem with gassers, set up your linkage so you have an exponential throw on the low side. This should get you above 20% before hover stick position.

09-22-2003 Over year old.

Airman98
Key Veteran
Location: Southern Illinois

The way your wanting to setup your GV1 is the way mine is setup.
Aux4 for RPM
Aux2 for on-off
It works great but I had the same problem when I first tried it. I cant remember exactly what solved the problem but I think it just was a setup issue on the GV1s monitor.

09-22-2003 Over year old.

tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

The setup posted above is what I use with my 10X and GV-1, and I can verify that this setup DOES work. Your problem is something else.

- Tim

09-22-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Well, my problem has got to be something else..... I have no idea where to turn now, my governor is as much use as a chocolate fireguard.......No matter how much time I spend going through it, I never get any closer..Here is a few points which may help diagnose the problem.
1. With Stick Switching Inhibited and governor switched on (I have an on/off switch on Aux2), I check the CDM screen on the GV-1 with the throttle closed and trim right down and it says OFF as you would expect. But, as soon as I move the throttle trim more than 2 clicks up the screen then says ON. (in reality it cannot be ON because it does not take over when the engine is running). I thought the screen should only say ON when the throttle has reached at least 20%? My helicopter has 125%/125% throws on the ATV's, the linkage is as linear as is possible as per Bill Meador, she hovers at around 30% throttle at 1500 head speed (without governor!) and she flies and runs great without the governor. As soon as Governor is on (it only seems to engage at around 3/4 stick) she screams up to around 1800 headspeed for no reason ( I have the metal head so I am not too worried!). I have the GV-1 set for 1500 and 1600 via aux 3 switch.
2. Another point, if I select GVof function and bring the value down to say 80%, would you expect the CDM screen to show OFF when you get past 80% throttle? Because it DOES NOT, it makes no difference at all, this cannot be right surely? Does that CDM moniter screen mean anything, because all it seems to do at the moment is lie to me!
Another point.....when I have had a flight and check the MAX screen it ALWAYS reads zero, how can this be? The governor does kick-in and take over at 1800 rpm, so why does it not tell me on the MAX screen?

I am beginning to think I have a either a dodgy governor (it is brand new), or a dodgy sensor (statorgator). I have discussed this with Tom, and I agree that if the GV-1 gives me an RPM reading (which it does), then the sensor has got to be working. I read the sensor screen with the engine running and it says 0% with the occasional flicker of a 9 sometimes. Tom says this is normal due to the GV-1 cannot keep up with the refresh rate. Can anyone else tell me what their GV-1 screen says on the sensor page with the engine running either at idle of fast idle?
If I cannot get to the bottom of this soon, I think I will have a ceremonial Governor Crushing Session and forget it as a bad idea.
My throttle curves have always served me well, I guess it is just this quest we are all on to refine and make our machines better........
Once again, any help appreciated - thanks for your input thus far!
Regards

09-23-2003 Over year old.

garyl
Senior Heliman
Location: taxachussetts

Max speed display

When you turn on your radio before flight set the gov. screen to max rpm, then go fly. When you land check the screen.

09-23-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Hi Gary

I will get a chance to go out and fly maybe this evening and I will give that a try. Normally I have just had the GV-1 at the default rpm screen, when I finished flying I would scroll through the menu to get the MAX screen, which as always reads Zero. Should I have to start the flight with the screen on MAX? I will try it anyhow.
Thanks for your input Gary, I guess this will be a process of elimination.
What are the odds of buying a new duff governor!
What sensor do you use?
Regards

09-23-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Xcellheliman,

I've been thinking on this.......If you would, take a picture of the throttle setup at half stick, at default settings, so I can see the positon of your throttle arm...I want to know if you have the arm 90 degs to the rod, or 90 degs to the centerline of the frame...Some folks who do not use the idle setscrew when setting up the atvs, go lock to lock...when they do this, the halfway point is mis-calibrated because there is very much deadband in the lowstop to idle..This will cause weird overspeeding due to mis-calibration....
Also, how do you have your curve setup in idle up 1?I would setup the curve first to keep it overspeeding...It may be that if you still have a default curve in idleup1 etc, that makes the engine ramp-up to quick, and the sensor somehow is not catching this ...Of course if your switching on the gov in normal at 1500, and its doing this, the above will not apply then....If both units are working, then I would change the ground to different locations....Make sure all of your electrical components are seperated from each other...
Just keep working on it, because the GOV is worth having on the machine...
Regards,
Bill

09-23-2003 Over year old.

tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

OK, some ideas:

When the engine is idling, the GV-1 should display the engine speed on the display. What to you get? (Actually, it will try to show what the head speed SHOULD be, unless you set it to show engine RPM. Since the sensor is on the fan, it does not know that the clutch is not engaged.) If you see zero, you have a sensor problem . . . .

When you check the sensor sensitivity, what do you get as a percentage? I can typically get 96% or so, but you don't need that much.

When you look at the RPM setting screen on the GV-1, move your throttle stick, and see if the setting changes (engine off!). The speeds that you set are based on the input signal, and are NOT fixed! If you set say 1500 RPM when you are sending, say, 255 on the channel, and then trim the channel up or down, the speed WILL change! This is how you can use the Aux4 pot to vary the setting! You may have a mix setup which buggers you speed setting as the stick comes up.

Lastly, did you set the high, low, and idle points as described in the GV-1 manual? These determine where the GV-1 will engage in StSw mode. If it is coming in at 80%, I suspect that they are wrong.

If none of these help, if you could post all settings from your GV-1, I can compare to mine. I suspect that you have some parameter set incorrectly someplace.

- Tim

09-23-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Hi Guys.....

I do get an RPM reading with the engine running, when switched to engine it reads around 3200-3500 at idle.
I do not have magnet sensors, I use the statorgator which means I get a zero reading on the sensor display with the engine on or off, but I am told this is perfectly normal.
I have set the GV-1 limits as per manual, there is not much I could do wrong here is there? Idle-move stick down to zero and move trim half way then press button, Full-Move stick fully open, press button, and the Kill-Stick and trim fully shut......
The Speed screen does not alter when I move throttle up and down, i.e I have NO mixes at all that could be interfering with this. I have even changed the channels on my RX & TX to alter the switching etc and tried every permutation, and every time it is exactly the same......useless.
The CDMoniter screen never seems to correspond with what is actually happening. In my mind it seems like the throttle percentage values are 'out of sink' with the governors values.
Example....the governor does not kick in until far to late...and...when it does it ignores my preset speed.....and....if I select GovOff and bring the value down to say 70% (which obviously is the minimum it will allow), the CDM screen will still say the governor is on even when I am at full stick.....and.....why (when switched on via Aux2) does the CDM screen tell me the governor is on when the throttle is only open about 1% using the trim, not even the stick!
Something has to be quite seriously wrong here and I am sure it has nothing to do with mixing. Maybe there is a JR & Futaba compatibility issue here? I know Futaba's values do not go above 100% and JR is 150%........I am still stuffed.
Can someone out there confirm to me that the CD moniter screen should be a reliable way of telling whether the governor is on or off?

Thanks.

09-24-2003 Over year old.

smosher
Senior Heliman
Location: canada

The RPM screen on my GV-1 shows an idle of 500 - 600 in the X-Cell gasser. 3200 - 3500 seems way too high for idle. Have you got the gear ratio set right?

09-24-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

I have it set the screen at 6.43 which is the x-cell ratio.
500-600 seems a very low idle, I am sure mine reads somewhere around 3000 which sounds like a very nice even tick over, I must admit my idle does not sound like 3000+rpm, but it is definatley a good idle speed, maybe this 3000 figure is wrong, but I cannot see how? Even if I had the gear ratio programmed wrong, the engine speed rpm indicator would still read correct, it would be the Rotor rpm figure that would be out, as the GV-1 is doing the maths,.....I guess....

09-24-2003 Over year old.

garyl
Senior Heliman
Location: taxachussetts

Xcellgasman,
I run my GV-1 with a statorgator sensor in a Vario Benzin, G230RC and a Futaba 9C. I have found that the max RPM only displays when it is set to that screen before flight. Just one of those things

09-24-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Hi Gary

Thanks for that, at least it helps me build up a picture of what to expect from it.
Could you tell me if you get a sensor reading when your bird is idling or even at hover rpm?

Regards

09-24-2003 Over year old.

garyl
Senior Heliman
Location: taxachussetts

It will read the rpm fine. The sensor % just flickers and you can not determine a number.

09-24-2003 Over year old.

jb_turner
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Xcellgasman,

I am also using 10x and GV1... I have tried to use the 8700 on GV1 but there is an issue between the 8700 and Gv1 probably having to do with the higher frame rates. I ended up using 517 servo and it works GREAT!... Try a different servo because the 8700 is overkill for that combo.

Please see this thread:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t53097p1/?highlight=gv1+8700

09-24-2003 Over year old.

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > GV-1 with PCM-10X

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