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Henseleit 3DNT - Rocket - 3DMP > 3DNT's with range problems after flying
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

My friend and I imported a 3DNT each from Cyberheli. Build it separately and compared notes afterwards. All seemed fine so I am 99.9% sure that both were built correctly. We did hear of a few people having problems with glitching on this heli - so we routed the antenna in several different ways and had well to very good range with transmitter’s aerial in. The problem is that after a couple of flights the range became practically nothing. With aerial in we got only about 5 to 10 paces. With the heli on the ground and holding the antenna straight up in the air it was OK again. At this stage if we held the antenna at any place you can fix it to the heli the range was very short. It is the same for both 3DNT's.

The fact that the range changes after flying must mean that the heli is building up static while flying???

Please help!! From the 2 "hard" flights I had after the running in phase I am very happy with the heli. I did rolls, loops, rolling circles, death spirals, auto's etc. and jeeeeehaaaaa but then I must land due to glitching like crazy. We fortunately did not crash but came close.

Bear in mind that I did hold the antenna in several different places with no expectable results. Only straight up worked – but there is a rotor there!!!! The best mountable place was from the tray to left boom support and straight to bottom of tail vertical fin. I do not like it this way.
09-08-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Pascal
Senior Heliman
Location: Paris, France

First question :

Are you using a PPM or a PCM receiver ?

Second :
Have you checked using an Ohm-meter that you have electric continuity from the engine to the tiny ball-bearing located on top of the rear AC pulley and fixed on the vertical fin ?
If not, as stated in the manual you should sand slightly the carbon boom where it is fixed in an aluminium part. Same for the carbon frames where it touches the same metallic part.
Same remark for the parts holding the engine.


Last : please check that when you move the AC belt by turning the main rotor, the two carbon pulley are touching the belt and turn on themselves.
Their role is to deposit carbon dust on the belt that will receive the static electricity. At the other end of the belt, the tiny ball-bearing will collect the static electricity (even if it does not touch the belt) and neutralize it.
This explain why it is so important to have a perfect electric continuity between this ball-bearing and the engine.

I put in flight 3 3DNT, (2 2002 models, 1 2003 model) over the last 6 months and none of have have glitching. All use PCM receivers ( as recommended by Jan)

Pascal
09-08-2003 Over year old.
 
 
duc996bp
Senior Heliman
Location: Preston, UK

Great info Pascal.

John
09-08-2003 Over year old.
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Pascal

Thank you for info. We are using PCM receivers with JR 3810 transmitters and we did sand the boom and frames at boom but not at motor. The manual did not say that I should. It does make sense what you are saying though. I was thinking of taking all the bolts that go through the main frames out and sand the area were the washer’s sits on the frame. Will check continuity tonight.
09-08-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

I checked for continuity last night and it was fine from motor to bolts holding vertical fin but nothing to bearing at back. I scraped the paint of the fin in 2 places and now it has continuity from motor to shaft that takes bearing at the back. Going to the bearing it only works some times. Checked for continuity from inner casing to outer casing on other bearings and got the same result.

My knowledge on this subject is very limited but let me try. We used a ?multimeter? and set it on Ohms. At first we got no reading through carbon then we set the sensitivity to its most sensitive setting and got readings as above.

Using a Webra 91 and 1700ma battery my 3DNT is nose heavy (suspended on its side by main shaft) I am considering swapping the receiver and battery around to move weight to the back and get the antenna to mount in a more straight line. As per manual you start at back take antenna to front and go back again, with receiver in front I start in front and then go to back in more straight line. Any thoughts or comments? Any problem with receiver being that close to motor?
09-09-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Pascal
Senior Heliman
Location: Paris, France

Hi,


Check the continuity between the engine and the metallic part that hold the tiny bearing.
This one must be permanent 0 ohm on any scale of your meter.

If it is not permanent, make it so...
Did you paint the fin ?
the intermittent effect is likely due to the grease inside the bearing, it does not matter as we are talking about high voltage of static electricity.
It will get through or around the grease...

My antenna is set as described in Jan's documentation.
It goes forward to the carbon part of the landing gear, BUT I have the antenna wire going through a silicon tube so that it is not too close from the carbon parts, and protected from rubing against carbon parts.
Having the antenna wire touching (with only the protection of its own insulation) carbon is not a good idea. a 2mm separation is needed to avoid shielding.

pascal
09-09-2003 Over year old.
 
 
helifever
Senior Heliman
Location: BE-8750

the heli should be nose heavy but you will see in flight that at this point everything is ok

i would not put the receiver in front

i changed my antenne that now goes straight to the top of the vertical tail fin, i also removed the horizontal fin as this can be a "small" block for the signals when inverted, i will post some pics next week

helifever
09-09-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Pascal

Like I said my knowledge on electrical stuff is basically 0. I have another friend that owns a mulimeter who will come over tonight and we will recheck. Last night we held the 2 wires from the mulimeter on each other and it beeped but on the edge of the same carbon frame 2cm apart it did not beep, also when touching both wires it did not beep. My friend then adjusted the ?sensitivity? of the multimeter and it beeped when touching both wires with separate hands and when held on carbon frame as above. When the wires did not touch the reading was 0 but I got different readings all over the heli with the one wire always on the motor. The reading changed from 97.? to 1.?

Helifever

I did not put the horizontal tail fin on for fast backwards flight (due to test done on my other heli’s)

Why will you not put receiver in front?

Antenna to top of vertical fin? What about the blades hitting it doing 3D?
I was thinking of going from left skid’s top, back side to almost bottom of vertical tail fin. In a plastic sleeve that is then pulled straight with elastic so that there is no tension on aerial itself. Also with a safety string for if elastic brakes. I do not need the antenna going into main blades while upside down. What do you think?
09-09-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Pascal
Senior Heliman
Location: Paris, France

Hi again...


To check electric continuity, you must put your probes on metallic parts, not on carbon ones.
This is why I advised to to check between the engine and the ball-bearing holder.
If you check between the engine and the cabon fin your reading is likely to be unstable, as you may or may not touch a carbon fiber which may or may not be connected to the fibers touching a metallic part , or just resin.
If you touch mettalic parts on the heli, the reading should always be 0 (full continuity) or very very close to 0...
If it is not the case, try to find where you have to sand the carbon parts by testing different metallic parts to find where is the bad connection.

You mentionned your heli is nose heavy, so the receiver should be in placed in the back, furthermore, if you place it where it should be, this is the place where it is most likely to survive in case of a major crash.

My antenna wire is going from near the bottom part of the landing skid (as advised on the documentation) and fixed by an elastic wire to the middle of the lower part of the vertical fin. It is a good idea not to have it parallel to the tail boom, and as far as possible from the frames and the canopy specially if you have the carbon one (as I have).
Having the wire going from the receiver directly to the upper part of the fin will give you bad result. (in certain positions it will be completely shielded by the tail boom).
The elastic wire I use is not a simple rubber elastic, but comes from my wife's sewing kit. Although it is elastic, it includes textile, which make it unlikely to break like a rubber elastic. I used also the supplied plastic guide to add some rigidity to the wire.

Pascal
09-09-2003 Over year old.
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Pascal - That is the way I am going to rout my antenna – sounds the best way I have heard up to now. Will test and let you know. I am just still worried about the fact that my range changed after a few flights. I would not like to crash due to a lockout. Crashing due to pilot error no problem – after the amount I had you get used to it.
09-09-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
bluefronted
Veteran
Location: South Africa

NOCONTROL , my " professional " advice would be to try a Vigor CS !!!
09-09-2003 Over year old.
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

bluefronted - He He He You must see this thing go Boy o Boy and I have not started playing with settings yet still flying on std. setup and guestimates on stuff like exponential

Pascal - I got the following readings last night (I now know how stupid my comments was about sensitivity on multimeter – my friend explained to me how it works last night – dankie Ubert dit het baie gehelp)

From Motor to Aluminium brace around boom – 0.3 ohm
From Aluminium brace around boom to aluminium peace you bolt the vertical fin to – 3.3 ohm
From aluminium peace you bolt the vertical fin to, to shaft holding small bearing at back – 0.6 ohm
Total of 4.2 ohm from motor to shaft holding small bearing at back.

If I file the carbon any more it will brake. I took a single strand of copper wire from 2mm Flex wire as long as my heli and got 0.6 ohm resistance in this copper wire alone. Even if I attach 2 of these strands from the motor to shaft holding small bearing at back I still do not get 0 ohm.

Any comments?
09-10-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Pascal
Senior Heliman
Location: Paris, France

Bonjour,


The results you give are OK, no need to add a wire.
You still have to do a range check while the engine is running, heli on the ground.
This way with a 9ZHP, antenna fully deployed, I have at least a range of 100m.
And I never had any problem while in flight.

Pascal
09-10-2003 Over year old.
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Goeie more (Afrikaans – my language)

Thank you, will check the range with motor not running and aerial in, start, fly, check range with motor not running and aerial in, and repeat a few times. I have checked my first Vigor CS before with motor running and when it started glitching it was not a nice experience – I ran towards it like crazy to get range again, fortunately with no incident. The hart was pumping at a rate higher than I could count. This was a new heli before first maiden.

My antenna is running from tray to halfway down the left skid at back and then towards the middle of vertical fin. First part in fuel tube (loosely, not tied to frame) and from skid to fin in plastic pipe with pipe tied to skid and fin – no pulling/strain on antenna.

Will post result – probably only after weekend.
09-10-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Forgot to ask: Both our canopies are touching the boom at the back. This must be a source of static build up. Are yours also touching or should I file it away to miss the boom?
09-10-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
diZeaZed
Senior Heliman
Location: Bunnell, Fl.

I don't want to change your topic, but I was wondering something. Does this apply specifically to the 3dnt, or is it a general rule for heli's to have continuity as you described. For instance, if I were to check my Raptor or my Preadator for continuity and it were poor, would I be at risk for static build up and/or radio lockout?
Thanks,
Jojo
09-10-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Pascal
Senior Heliman
Location: Paris, France

Bonsoir...


Actually, I added a piece of foam (5cm width) to suppress noise.
This way my heli generates about 69dB at 3 meters while hovering, and it removed contact points between the canopy and the boom, and between the canopy and the skids.
Anyhow you have a little sharp needle, 0,2mm high at the end of each aluminium stick holding the front part of the canopy that insure that the canopy is grounded...

Pascal
09-10-2003 Over year old.
 
 
duc996bp
Senior Heliman
Location: Preston, UK

Nocontrol

Have you resolved your range problem?

John
09-22-2003 Over year old.
 
 
nocontrol
Veteran
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

duc996bp – Yes. I did the continuity as described above by Pascal and look at the pictures in my gallery to see how I routed the antenna. In fuel tube to were the skid plate and frame meet and from there in plastic tube to tail fin. I am pulling the tubing strait hence no tension on antenna itself.
09-22-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Mart
Heliman
Location: Wiltshire,UK

To also confirm, I have set mine up as suggested above and have experienced no issues.

Thanks guys, excellent forum.

Martin
10-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
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GrandRC . CanoMod . Futaba-RC

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Henseleit 3DNT - Rocket - 3DMP > 3DNT's with range problems after flying
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