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Ace Hobby . Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC

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Main Discussion > How much does your 30's weigh?
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

How much does everyones 30's weigh. I am looking to find out the weight as opposed to the power availability. And the verticle climb out. At what weight does the climb out start to really suffer. I have a HEAVY Raptor due to a lot of upgrades. According to the guys at my field it is just WAY to heavy. It weighs in at 7 pounds even without fuel. And at 7.8 pounds fully fueled with CP30. It has the larger tank and a 2oz header tank. So give me some weights and thoughts, I'll listen. But I WILL not remove my purple purdies!

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.
03-11-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Maxx
Key Veteran
Location: Shreveport Louisana

Damn Brian, 7.8 lbs.??? that Ergo .30 weight! I used to fly Shuttles and with 550mm NHP's at 10 degrees and 1800RPM (OS.32/Helimaxx pipe) the climbout was "brisk" This was with a heli full of fuel that weighed >7 lbs.! At that weight it did great 3D and was a blast to fly...just don't let the engine crap out...heli's are like planes in that regard; you fly on the engine, you land on the wing! At takeoff weight, your .30 at 7.8 lbs. is flying on a set of blades with a span of +/- 1250mm (x) that pie-are-squared thing from skool and you have your swept disk area. Now; go to a .60 heli...an X-Cell at 9.252525 lbs to my Futuras at 11 lbs. with almost DOUBLE the swept disk area and only a 2.2 lb. average weight difference! Power loading works the same way, with some obivous differences...:rolleyes That is what made me quit the .30's...they fly great, are loads of fun and are cheap to fix...but when the engine quits you better be in the right place at the right airspeed with the right control inputs...or you get to use another crash kit...I never had an engine quit on my Shuttle in what I would consider a "bad" place; low/inverted, low/downwind but still I did the "blades, boom, spindle, main shaft replacement game. Bottom line is this: each heli has a limit to the span of the blades it can swing..525mm,550mm, or710mm. You can change the profile of the blades to make the RPM/Engine power more efficient i.e. flat bottomed or semi symm. blades and get more climb or auto preformance out of the heli, BUT, as predicted...other areas incur the slack, inverted capability goes South as does an easy pitch/throttle curve...! Of course, the entire above scribe could be Gas...it MAYBE those Damn Purple Paddles!!!
03-11-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

Thanks for the response. Just dont say another thing about my Purple paddles! I like em'. And yes I have Purple paddles to. Just in case you were kidding.

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.
03-11-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Raj Patel
Senior Heliman
Location: Humble, TX

weight reduction

HI Brian, I use Nexus landing gear and Nexus canopies on both of my raptors. Using both reduces the raptors weight by about 80 grams.

I don't know which canopy you are using, you may already have the lower weight fiberglass raptor canopy. IF so, the nexus landing gear will reduce the weight by about 40 grams.

Probably won't help a whole lot, but every little bit counts :+)

Raj
03-11-2002 Over year old.
 
 
oldfart
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver, Canada

weight

Wow Brian, that's about half a pound heavier then my Falcon SE with the OS50 - needless to say a real rocket!!!

My Hawk III (now owned by someone else) was/is only a hair over 6 lbs!

My scale Bell 222 with retracts and Hawk mechanics only weighs in at 7 pounds and 4 oz.!!
03-11-2002 Over year old.
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

Raptor weight

My Raptor with OS 32 SX-H, Macs pipe, stock except for 49bb upgrade, 1400 mah 4 cell sub-c pack, weighs 6.8 pounds, dry.

My Raptor with OS 46 SF-H, Ark muffler, stock except for 49bb upgrade and carbon t/r pushrod, extended boom & belt, 1400 mah 4 cell sub-c pack, weighs 7.4 pounds dry.

My $.02 - fly your Raptor stock. Ok, a good set of blades is a worthwhile investment, but everything else is eye candy.
03-11-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

Some of it may be eye candy, but man is it sweet!

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.
03-11-2002 Over year old.
 
 
metalman
Senior Heliman
Location: ada, okla.

Rapter #1, OS32, 49BB, Alum. head button. Alum. washout base, 1000ma battery.401 gryo, Weston 15% pipe, stock canopy, SAB 550 blades, Revolution antenna----- 6.6 lbs. dry. Rapter #2, OS32, 49 BB, Alum. head button, Alum. washout base, 1200 ma battery, 401 gryo, Hatori muffler, 'glass canopy { Aero Hobbies}, SAB 550 blades, Revolution antenna--- 6.6 lbs. dry. How about anybodies Fury 60 Expert ? Mine is 9.8 lbs. with Gamma 700 blades, 401 gyro, YS61ST2, Hatori muffler, Futaba 9252's and Revolution antenna. Is 9.8 fat or lean?
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

eyecandy

Hey Brian

I should not poke fun at the helicopter "eyecandy". My other hobby is building and riding mountain bikes. I'm plenty guilty of it myself as my bikes have loads of eye candy, or "bike jewelry" as I call it.
03-12-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
d-n-jensen
Veteran
Location: Bellevue WA

Just for comparison

In my gallery you will see my winter project It came in at 8 lb 3 oz. with out fuel. OS 50 HHI ergo canopy and the E-Xcell top end.
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

Eric, man its cool. I look at it this way. I love my Raptor. And for those who don't like my purple purdies. Just look away, becouse I am not about to remove them. No disrespect intended.

Now I will say that seeing a Raptor with an excell head is interesting. How does it fly? I could retro fit a Hawk SE head I have to mine, if I was so inclined. Which is the same as the head on your ship. Interesting idea.

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Don Cooper
Heliman
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Rapture with XL Head

Brian

I fly a Rapture 30 with an xl head. It is super smooth and will do anything the pilot can do. Of course 30 percent nitro and a tune pipe helps.

Don

Why panic...It's going to crash anyway
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

<>

That's the bottom line. If it makes you happy, and doesn't cause others grief (like being unsafe, etc.) then don't worry about it.

I'm in the same boat. My new X-Cell 30 weighs 7.8 pounds DRY. I call it "The Pig", and some 3D-flying acquaintances are even less complimentary...

But I like it. I am experimenting with different blade sizes (limited to 560mm, and I won't stretch the boom- that would be defeating the whole purpose of a 30, to me).

Chris (Maxx) is dead-on about how other-than-normal blades really mess with your curves.

I've got a set of Sluggo 46 blades on it right now- 560mm, 55mm chord, and 141 grams. They are a definite improvement, lift-wise, over the 550x47x120g glass blades I had on there initially, but now my "power curve" is FUBAR and needs some serious tweaking. And the improvement, while noticeable, is not THAT much. I've got one more set of "custom" blades to try, but it looks like I may be going back to the LT-550s when all is said and done.

Basically, the engine's power band is now not ahead of the blade's going into higher pitch during climb-outs. It settles down once you level off. Nothing to get drastically concerned about, but it needs fixing.

Brian, if the extra weight degrades your desired performance, you have two options- lose some weight, or increase your power plant/rotor disk. I was hoping that wider-chord blades (thus increasing the swept area) would solve my problem of the thing plummeting when collective is dropped. It helped, but if I can't get the power band adjusted to my satisfaction, then all is for naught.

This has been an interesting deal. I've discussed this at length with Ray Hostetler, and he thinks I'm basically wasting my time with the fatter blades. He may be right. My hole card is the semi-symmetrical reflex airfoil on the set of V Blades I've got coming.

Steve
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

xl head

Hey Brian

I do think that your Raptor looks pretty sweet! I avoid the fancy upgrade parts because I figure I'm just gonna destroy it anyways...

I don't have an XL head on mine. But it is an interesting idea. Does anyone have a picture of one? Do you have to use a different mainshaft...is there a difference in hole position for the Jesus bolt that would make a difference?
03-12-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Brain, you are an UPGRADE-AHOLIC

Just admit you have a problem and are addicted to shiny bits and purple parts.

I like the looks of machines all decked out in all the glorified parts too. But I have seen the most decked out shinny shuttle you could imagine. You know what it does? It sits on the shelf and isn't flown. It's a show peice to lure in customers. It weighs a ton and flies like a brick.

Try to avoid upgrades that are just there for Shine. Some parts are usful some are just waste.

Just have to ask, what radio gear you got? That's wear I spend my money when I can.

Ken B
03-12-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

I fly with an 8103DT and I like it just fine. I have 2 CSM 400 HH gyros, 1 in my Raptor and 1 in my Vigor. I do intend on getting the 401 combos eventually, but for now the CSM's will have to do. I have a complement of servos from 8101's, 4721, to 531's with a few others in between. So I don't think my radio gear is lacking much. But that is my oppinion. As for me being an upgrade addict, all I can say is YUP! Is there a 12 step program for this? Actually my Vigor only has the shaft drive upgrade on it. And that is it. And the only reason I got that is becouse a guy sold it to me new still sealed in the box for $200.00. So I thought that was a GREAT deal. So I got it. Otherwise it is stock. And IMPO needs nothing else. The Raptor was free, with carbon fins, carbon boom supports, purple boom mount, upgrade muffler, and an OS 32 SXH. All NEW! It was a gift from my girlfriend. The radio gear was a gift from my parents. So all I have in it is the upgrades, and the blades (main and tail). But it is heavy. And flies like a dream. It tracks super straight, has no woof at all, and stays where you put it. My Miniair rep buddie says it flies like an Excell 30. And in his oppinion he would sarifice some climb out for that stable and smooth of a ship. I just thought I would ask you guys what you thought. Keep the answers coming.

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Brian,

There is a well-known planker who insists that lighter airplanes fly better in wind, due to the fact that they "damp" (quit moving around) quicker after being hit by a gust. I was always suspicious of that, and finally saw the truth when a fellow showed up at the field with a Super Kaos just like mine; that was at least a pound heavier.

His flew better in the wind; period. Now, I have been told about and shown the engineering figures, etc, backing up the "lighter flies better" theory. Fine. I know what I saw and felt flying those two near-identical planes back to back on a windy day.

My point is that your additional weight might well be the reason your Raptor flies so solidly. "The Pig" certainly is rock-steady, and great in the wind. But I haven't developed the cojones to try aerobatics with it yet. I'm afraid it will fall out of a loop like a shot duck...

Steve
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Dyehard
Veteran
Location: Cedar Bluff, Va.

Go for it Steve. I flew a dead stock 30 X-cell for about three years, and I looped it, rolled it and autoed it every flight. All that with the stock wood blades. I had the gyro fall out of it while in inverted flight about sixty feet up, managed to roll it out, hit throttle hold and get if down in one piece, again with those wood blades. If you go back about ten or eleven years, there were several contest put on where the .30's were flown using the FAI schedule of the time. The little X-cell won most of those contests, again with wood blades.
03-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
oldfart
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Wind and stability

Steve, there is no doubt (and physics will agree) that weight will have a difference in a wind. A heavy object is harder for the wind to move...no secret there. That is one of the reasons why a B-747 will not be as effected by mild turbulance as will a C-172. Simply because of inertia - it takes more force (wind strength) to move the heavier object. But that is the ONLY time weight has an advantage.

In fact in relatively light winds and/or in calm air I can set up a light 6 1/4 pound heli to do the FAI hovering manuevers better then the SAME heli with weights in it to bring it to 7 1/2 pounds. Believe me, I have done this experiment. It will have the same "solid feel" over the flags as the heavier one but will be much easier to get moving on to the next flag and a lot easier to stop on that flag when it gets there. Simply because of inertia, it takes less energy from the rotor system to start and stop it.

Ditto for everywhere else in the flight envelop.

Climb out - better power to weight ratio means better acceleration to a better max climb speed. SImply because one will be able to pull more pitch at the top at the same rotor speed. (This will also mean faster straight line flight also)

Descent - gravity has exactly the same draw on a feather as on a brick (32 ft/sec/sec until terminal velocity is reached) so the difference is in the amount of energy that will be required to stop any descents. The energy (Mass X Gravity) to stop the decent of a 7.5 lb. heli will be 20% more then that for a 6.25 lb. one. Consequently, though I can auto the 7.5 lb unit, I will be able to do more on the way down with the lighter one and have a lot more "hang time" on the bottom with it also.

Hovering and manoevering pitches - the heavier one (using the same blades and the same rotor speed) will require more pitch in the hover and not be able to pull as much at the top. As an example, the heavy one may hover at a particular rotor speed at 5.5 degrees of pitch and be able to pull 9 at the top. The lighter one will hover at 5.0 and be able to pull 10 at the top. Consequently the pitch spread is a full 1.5 degree better for the lighter one. The lighter one will have a full 5 degrees (10-5) of manouvering pitch available while the heavier one will have only 3.5 (9-5.5). Consequently, if they are both set up to maximize this the lighter one will not feel "as smooth". Why, it has more inertia available to respond to commands and to stop when commanded. To soften its hover, you can "detune it". Collectively, do not max out the pitch and throttle in the hover mode (maybe only use 8.5 - now you will have the same 3.5 degrees of collective spread - at the top and adjust the top end throttle down until it keeps the same rotor speed in a climb, without speeding up). Cyclicly do not max out the cyclic and/or use extra exponential or more flybar weight.


Manoevering power - Similar forces come into play here alsohere. If it takes a certain force to hold the 7.5 heli in the hover, it will take a 20% smaller force to suspend the 6.25 lb. one in the air. Let say we want to generate this force with a specific set of blades at a specific rotor speed, and we have an engine of 1.2 hp. We may find that about .625 HP will be required by the 6.25 lb heli and .75 hp by the heavier one. Therefore in the first case I have .575 hp (1.2-0.625)available for manoevering while with the heavier heli I will only have .45 hp available to manoever. That actually means the lighter one has 28% more power to manouever with then does the heavier one! Consequently I can set it up to respond quicker (accelerate in and out of a cyclic demand) before bleeding off any rotor speed.

I can set the lighter one to be as smooth as the heavier one except in heavy, gusty winds (and even here they will be pretty close), On the other hand, there is no way to set the heavier one to be as responsive in the hover or upstairs as one can the lighter one. And no way to get the heavier one to auto with the reserve of the lighter one.

My conclusion - lighter is better.
03-13-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

<<..lighter is better..>>

Well, I can't argue with your statements. They make sense; but I know what I saw/felt with those two airplanes. I would really like to duplicate that experience with two identical helicopters, one heavier than the other. Then I could tell if the effort needed to overcome the greater inertia of the heavier ship was worth the reduced bouncing around.

Sounds like we need two each of our favorite machine; one light for calm days, one heavier for windy days...

Steve
03-13-2002 Over year old.
 
 
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Main Discussion > How much does your 30's weigh?
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