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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > X-cell gasser G231 PUH Break-in

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Hi there, I am in U.K, I have had an X-cell gasser for the last 2 years, I have just blown up the stock G23PUH engine and have just got hold of a G231PUH. Can anyone give me any good tips on what oil to use, what ratio, and carb settings for break-in. I found the stock G23PUH to be O.K but never great, I am expecting great things from the new G231, but I would like to avoid seizing the thing! Any Help would be appreciated! I use it for camera work, so reliability is more important than grunt & performance.

Thanks

Never regret what you have done, only what you never did!

08-17-2003 Over year old.

BIGRCR
Veteran
Location: Easley, South Carolina

The new G231 is a real powerhouse and a real sweet motor. I have one of the prototypes and have 4.5 gallons through it now. The fuel I started out with was Lawn Boy ashless oil and 93 octane premium gasoline mix at 38.5:1 ratio for initial break in since it is a good quality oil and is petroleum based and made the ring seat a little faster. I used this oil for the first gallon and then moved to Klotz synthetic at 40:1 ratio for 1/2 gallon and now exclusively use Amsoil 100:1 oil mixed 64:1 with Coleman lantern fuel (white gas).
Although I did a little bit of oil selection changes, it is not a good idea to swap oil and content. Once you find a good oil, stick with it, don't just grab anything off of the shelf and don't swap back and forth. A good mix ratio number with most any GOOD 2-cycle pre-mix oil is 40:1 ratio, maybe 48:1. With Amsoil, I am using 60:1 and some pilots even use the Amsoil oil at 100:1 (not me).

The needles need to be set so that the engine is happy in a hover with the low end needle. Always start from a rich setting and work in from there. A good starting number for the low needle will be 1 and 1/2 turns open and the top will be around 1 and 3/8--- to start with. Just make sure the needles are a little richer than you need to start with and work from there.

What you will be looking for is a good smooth hover with little to no shaking around 1600 head speed on the LOW needle. The LOW needle controls the throttle through hover and up TO the transition to full throttle. The HIGH needle controls primarily the wide open throttle only (this is if it is at least open enough for the circuits to work-- ie- in the ball park) Being on the rich side for a tank or two won't hurt, you will just be HOVERING!. Remember, start from the rich side ALWAYS!!!! You will find that in a hover with the rich Low needle setting, the tail will swing a good bit when adding power, that's OK for now untill you get the first tank or two in. Next lean down the LOW needle a very minute amount (just enough to know you have moved it a hair!) and try again. You will find a place where the transition on throttle gets a little smoother and the tail stops kicking so much. Just don't hurry it and get to a lean condition!! Your needle setting will continue to change slightly as the motor breaks in.

Now as the motor gets a little time on it and starts to settle down a bit, start some powered ( not extreme) climb outs and you will see that you will still be rich at TOP throttle. If not, make it so and then slowly lean down the HIGH needle for TOP throttle only and be conservative for a couple of gallons. You will slowly develop an ear for the motor if you will listen to it and LOOK at the heli and check for signs of being lean. This will be a shake in the SKIDS and possibly the canopy and vertical tail fin. Always assume the motor is lean in this condition and richen it up a hair on the bottom needle (usually) until it stops shaking and as I said, you will develope your senses for the motor if you know what to look for.

Do not just go by needle setting that are posted on a forum, they will be a good starting point. Always learn to analize the helicopter and ALWAYS ERROR to the RICH SIDE!!!!!

Another tip is to make sure that before you shut the motor off, run it a little while at idle (a minute or so) and allow it to cool itself a bit and work a little fuel and oil back around the piston before shutting it down, Don't just chop the throttle and throw it in the truck!

Hope this helps!!!

BIGRCR- John Garst

08-18-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

X-Cell gasser break-in G231PUH

Hi John, wow, that was a comprehensive response! Thankyou so much! I am new to these Internet forums, not for much longer, damn they are useful!! I have had my X-cells ever since I started flying model helicopters (4years now), and they have served me proud. I have always felt the old g23puh was a bit crude compared to the RC 230 which most of the people at my club use in their Vario Benzines. They always seem so smooth by comparison which I guess has been down to far better porting etc. The downside for them has always been the Vario weighs a whole bunch more than the X-cell, and so they NEED that extra power from the RC 230! I am hoping my new G231PUH will run as sweetly as the RC 230? I have been using Amsoil at 75:1 for the last year or so with good results, although we had the hottest day in History over here in the U.K last week, and so did my G23's piston and barrel ! I am guessing I did not make allowance for this fact (I should have richened it up a bit?), and the result was a massive loss of power (I auto'd it down) but the damage was done. The exhaust port side of the piston & barrell was very badly scored and I could see that the small end of the con-rod had gone a bronze colour suggesting massive overheating!
I have never been very confident tuning my G23 as it always seemed to have to be too lean in order for me to get good power and no hesitation in the hover (2 things needed for aerial work!).
Am I right in thinking that once the TOP needle has been adjusted it generally never needs to be touched again, as it is the LOW end which will need the odd twinkle now and then?
Do you think running at 75:1 with Amsoil is a bit lean unless you (me) have a very good ear and experience with these motors?
If I could run at 32:1 with the G231PUH and have a smooth running motor I would. The only reason I dropped the oil in the old motor was because I just could never get it to run real sweetly on anything but 75:1.
I know X-cell suffer from from front-left-skid buzz if things are not spot on, and my gasser has always had a bit of buzz on the Front-Left-Skid. I figured I would just have to live with it as I could never seem to get rid of it! Does this suggest to you that I have always been running the old motor too lean?
I really could do without cooking my new G231, firstly it's costly, secondly I have the only G231PUH in England at this time (so I have been told) as they have not been released over here yet.
With Amsoil, (I have 3 Litres of the stuff), what oil ratio should I ultimately run with when the motor has broken in - in your opinion to make the engine run sweetly in the hover without the tail kicking, and keeping the motor cool?
Sorry for such a ridiculously long post, I will learn to be more concise in the future!
Many Thanks!

08-18-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

G231 Break-in

One more thing.....with regards to the importance of a good break-in period, what is the worst scenario if a gasser engine does not get a good break-in period? In the Zenoah hand-book it suggests they do not need to be broken-in, they will just gradually produce more power as they get settled. I am keen to be gentle with my new motor, how many tanks/gallons will I need before I can let her rip?
Am I right in thinking I should use the lowest Octane Fuel I can get hold of? I am not sure whether it was a co-incidence, but the day when my gasser's motor died was the first time I had ever used a gas called Shell Optimax which has a higher octane rating (I am not sure exactly what rating it is). I usually use regular unleaded gas but on this day I thought I would try something new. Was it a mistake? Could a higher octane gas make my engine run hotter?
Please excuse my ignorance on these matters, I have never bothered checking octane ratings before as I run a diesel engined car!
Thanks

08-18-2003 Over year old.

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Xcellgasman..

I can also echo what others are saying. I recently converted my Gas X-Cell to the new G231PUH engine. It seems to run stronger, cooler and with less vibration.

The reason I switched was because I somehow broke a motor mount on my G230PUH. Because this happend right at the peak of the summer flying season here in New Hampshire (we have a short flying season), I didn't want to wait to repair the old engine. Also, because everyone was raving about the new 231, I thought I'd treat myself to one.

The new engine seemed to break in nicely. I ran the first gallon using 50:1 of the amsoil that you are using (the one labled 100:1 premix). I kept the idle a bit rich.

The first tank I let the engine just idle on the ground.

The second tank I slowly lifted off into a hover, then set it down.. idled some more, then repeated.

The third tank I would hold it in a hover, but without any load or flying around.

The fourth and fifth tank I started to fly gentle circuits.

Then I started to fly more and more my normal style.

Then I leaned the idle mixture just a bit more to get rid of the tail shakes.

After the first gallon I switched to 64:1 amsoil mix. I've been there ever since. Previously I was using my G230PUH on 80:1 amsoil. I'm going to see how it does on the 64:1.

After I received the new 231 engine, a friend offered to TIG weld my old 230. So I disassembled it for repair. I was shocked to see that at one time my engine had been run too hot also. The exhaust side of the piston was scored! This was a surpise to me because my engine had been running so well! I must have done this years ago, I never remember having a problem though. I installed new rings when I re-assembled the 230 just in case. This goes to show how tough these zenoah engines are!

I'm running coleman 'camper fuel' right now. It seems to run well. I know the Zenoah manual says to use 90 octane fuel but I'm not sure what the octane rating is of coleman fuel. As soon as my current gallon runs out I'll switch to a gallon of 92 octane gasoline at the same 64:1 amsoil mixture to see how that runs.

Good luck with your new engine. Treat it well it will treat you well also!

---
Rich

08-18-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

X-cell g231PUH

Rich

Thanks for that, I think I will take it steady as you did for the first gallon and hope for the best. You say your motor mount was damaged as well. Co-incidently my G23PUH (the one I just blown) has also got a cracked mount about an inch long (not on the compression side of the crankcase!). I had never noticed it before and I am not sure whether this is connected to the scored bore and overheating etc? I am beginning to wonder whether running Amsoil at 75:1 is a good idea? Maybe it is just my poor tuning ability!! It seems quite a coincidence that both of us had scored bores/pistons, a cracked motor mount and we both use Amsoil at around 75 - 80:1. I wonder if anyone else could share any more examples of this?
Any more anecdotes like this would be appreciated!
Thanks Rich.

08-18-2003 Over year old.

reefguy
Senior Heliman
Location: palmdale california

231

rich,

does the new 231puh engine specs where the mounting are the same as the original g23, do you have to change anything like clutch or shoe, do you have know where this 231 can be obtained or a picture of it. thanks.

08-18-2003 Over year old.

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

XcellGasman.

No, I believe the reason why my crankcase cracked is because somehow I forgot to install the spacer between the frame and the crankcase. Or when I installed the bolt which is supposed to go through the spacer, somehow it didn't go through the hole in it, but the spacer was simply trapped between the frame and the engine. Then later when flying the spacer fell out. With all that stress on the crankcase from the mounting bolt, the case cracked.

When I found the cracked crankcase the spacer was no where to be found, so I can only guess as to what happned, but it was either of the two reasons which I mentioned above

ReefGuy,

The new 231 engine mounts the same as the 230 engine. You can see pictures of the two in my gallery.

Here is an example: (click on this picture to make it larger, or see more pictures in my gallery)

The engine on the left is the G231PUH. The one on the right is the G230PUH.

xCellGasman, you can notice in this picture how my crankcase was TIG welded back together see the mounting tab on the engine on the right.

I'm also very sure that my piston scoring happened well before I ever started using Amsoil. In fact, I was previously running 32:1 or 40:1 oil as Zenoah advises. But it wasn't Amsoil!

---
Rich

08-18-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Zenoah Crankcase

Rich

I am glad there seems to be no connection as I was impressed with Amsoil and would rather continue to use it. Can anyone tell me how the G231 handles 32:1 or 40:1 oil ratio. I would feel a bit happier to run my new motor on nearer to 40:1 if possible, but will this make the motor run hotter or hesitant in the hover - i.e tail wag etc? I have not yet started this new engine as I have not had the time to get to it, but I expect to get her running Wednesday and want her first heart beats to be as smooth as silk with the least amount of stress!
Does anyone have a recommendation for Spark Plug type & gap?
Is there anyone out there with any cooling mods I should know about? I have the aluminum fan which is well balanced, I have still yet to mount it to the G231, I am hoping it will dial up with no trouble

Thanks guys for your help, this forum is a great place! I cannot remember looking forward to switching on my computer for ages! I'd rather be flyin'
Cheers.

08-18-2003 Over year old.

BIGRCR
Veteran
Location: Easley, South Carolina

XCellgasman,

The top needle will require a bit of adjustment from time to time also. Air density and humidity (among other things) will play a part in your mixture just like they do in a glow engine.

From what I have heard, the 230 has a little more power than the 231 but I am not sure as I have not seen proof that it has more power! The 231 is much happier than the old 23 and will have much less vibration. The 231 will operate at a higher RPM in hover than the old 23 would. Yes, your mixture was probably a bit lean in the 23 contributing to the vibes. A 23 will also be unhappy at hover RPM much over 1580-1600 anyway. My 231 will not even twitch at 1700 head speed! The old 23 would turn the vertical fin into a blur at anything near this RPM.

Keeping the engine loaded will also keep the vibes down. If the engine is allowed to unload, it will get unhappy pretty quick and start a vibe. A good pitch and throttle set up is a must with a gasser!

Yes, the Amsoil is great stuff and Bill Meader did run at least one engine on 100:1 mix for testing with good results, but if you don't have a very keen ear and know the engine inside and out, I would not do this. You don't have a bunch of room to spare at this ratio for a lean (or a few of them) run. That's why I am happy with the 64:1 mix. The 231 actually had very low vibration using 38.5:1 mix and was quite happy. This engine is totally different than the 23. It uses a single ring (among other mods) and this helps to keep the engine happy as it has less friction and runs MUCH cooler than the 23. My 231 runs around 230 and 250 normally. I have a J type thermocouple and digital thermometer (lab equipment) that I measure this with, in flight. Static temps after you set the bird down don't tell you DOO DOO!

Actually, the 23 almost had to be too lean to get the carb to settle down and then you picked up shakes from being lean, crap, then you were over heating. The 231 shows none of these tendancies. It doesn't even need the fiberglass fan shroud anymore, it runs that much cooler!

Like I said, you will be safe at anything from 50 to 64:1 using the Amsoil and the motor will run the way it should on these ratios. The 231 will also run the higher oil content without getting too rough.

The only plug I know of that there is for the G231 is the Champion RZ7C and good luck finding them!! The plug comes gapped at .035" or .032" and I regapped it to .022". I am still running the original plug without fouling, good thing, I can't get a new one from Horizon yet!

The 231 will break in pretty fast for a gasser. I was hammering mine pretty hard at 1 gallon and the bird was doing HARD 3D at 2 gallons. I have checked out the motor and it seems to be no worse for it either.

The lower octane fuel will burn in the cylinder faster than high octane fuel. Your thinking is correct!! Use regular pump (86 or 87 octane) gas or better yet, camper fuel!! It has almost no odor and runs great in the gassers! It's octane rating is real low and it works great! That small a motor doesn't give a crap about octane. 38:1 ratio fuel ran nearly flawlessly in the 231, my only concern was fouling of the plug so I dropped the oil content.

Hope this helps!!!

BIGRCR- John Garst

08-19-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Good job John on all your post....The only thing holding us back is this muffler situation...I looked at the new Hatori that was on the new Fury gasser..Just looking, I think its going to be to small too...The 4030 is just to small...It hurt me at IRCHA, but did ok....
Also, Buzz at Magnum Fuel gave me some new oil to try .....Hey now, I'm always open for a better way to help our cause..I'll let you guys know how it does. It will have to be pretty good to beat the Amsoil..
Something for you guys to look out for with your shaking machines...I started getting a bad right fin buzz...The sprag bearing was dirty on the maingear...Cleaned it, and it went away....I don't have a constant drive, so its more critical with the bearing using the main shaft to run on...Use very light oil like wd 40 type, or transmission fluid....

Guys,
Don't get discouraged on this tuning deal....I went thru the same thing with old equipment, so I know how you feel.....With the new engines, its a lot better, believe me

I'm getting more time on these engines, and will later on give more details on setup.....I just want to do it on newer equipment...The pocket book limits that...oh well full steam ahead

To all my friends at IRCHA, thanks for a great time... a special thanks to my gasser buddys from NY...What a hoot these guys were!

Regards,
Bill

08-19-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

X-Cell G231 Break-In

Thanks John & Bill

I am feeling much more confident about my new motor's chances of survival now! I will get her cranked up tomorrow with great anticipation! I am going to ask another silly question....here goes, can anyone tell me whether 2 cycle fuel (once it has been mixed in a can with oil) has a shelf life of days/weeks or months. Some people have said it must be used within a month or the oil breaks down in the gas and loses some of it's lubricating qualities. Any truth in this? I use 1 year old gas in my lawnmower with no worries, but I don't run it at 80:1! Just a thought.....
Due to our lousy weather over here most of the year, I have been known to mix up a gallon of fuel and not use it for a month due to rain etc. would the fuel still be O.K? We are probably delving into molecular chemistry now!! Maybe BillMe has done some trials? I know the simple answer is do not mix up more than you need, but it would be nice to know one way or the other.
I am keen to see this X-Cell fury gasser, it probably will not hit our shores for another year! I converted my X-Cell Gasser to 120degree CCPM last year anyway with no problems. It flys so much smoother with a really 'crisp' response and is lighter. I got rid of all those lousy control rods and rocking servos and shaved even more weight off the machine. With the new G231 motor under the hood as well, I feel I have got myself the lightest gasser possible. When I have worked out how to leave pictures on this site I will post one up. Does anyone know the weight of the new Fury Gasser?

Thanks Guys
Regards
Nick.

08-19-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Nick, from everything that I've seen on the new Fury Gasser, its going to be about 11.5 at the most...It was lighter than my gasser, which is 12 lbs.....
How did you do your far and aft cyclic on your ccpm? I put the SE front end on mine, which helped with the mechanical pitch setup...

On the gas deal, so long as your fuel bottle doesn't see big temp changes, where as the mosture can collect, your ok for about a month...Thats my limit...The oil IMO can lose it lubricisity...even with cars, thats the reason they give a time with the miles..3 months, or 3000 miles...With these high tech 2 cycle synthetic oils, who knows?
Nevertheless, 1 month is a fair limit to be safe..
Regards,
Bill

08-19-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

X-cell gasser ccpm

Bill, thanks for the info, I figured there would have to be some sort of time limit for the mix, 1 month sounds good.

My gasser weighs around 11.8, it depends whether I run it with the stock muffler which is noisy & lousy, or nice & quiet BUT heavy Zimmerman (the transverse mounted one on the rear). I could re-configure the front end and lose more weight if I had the time, but I never get around to it.
The Forward and Backward cyclic servo I have mounted in the same place as the normal elevator servo (although it is bias to one side), but I have put an x-cell bell crank between the side frames just behind the mast to transmit the movement, works great! I think the glow fury has a similar arrangement for that servo, but I beat them to it!
The two other cyclic servos are mounted on outriggers made from x-cell stand-offs and elevator servo mount plates. It means the whole upper and lower side frames are stiffened and joined for better overall rigidity. I did the whole conversion using all stock x-cell components after having a bad day when the single collective servo failed on the old system (DS8411) and my gasser hit the ground like a rock! Thankfully I had just come in from a 100ft hover to land and I was literally 4ft from the ground when it happened and the heli suffered no damage at all.
I decided that 1 servo working the whole collective system whilst carrying a payload as well was too much.
I have never had a problem since, (tempting fate!)
Thanks Bill

08-19-2003 Over year old.

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

XcellGasman,

How about posting some pictures (or email them) of your CCPM setup. I have been thinking of doing something similar. It takes me a lot of 'thinking' time before I usually implement anything.

See my gallery for some other things I did, such as strengthen the upper frame members, and use the magneto magnets in the G23 (either one) to trigger the Futaba GV-1 governor.

---
Rich

08-19-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

X-Cell G231 PUH & CCPM

Rich

I have got my 231 running this evening, she's going to be gorgeous I can tell! You notice there is a difference the moment you pull the cord, it just has a more punchy feel to it.....I love it so far! I have only put 2 tanks through her in my backyard but she is just about ready for the hover, there is definately an extra horse in there somewhere waiting to be unleashed! I am running with the supplied 643 carb (without the built-in choke), I was very tempted to run it with the 603 as this has the integral choke for convenience, although I have always wondered whether the inherent turbulence it causes inhibits things a bit!

I will e-mail you some pics of my ccpm system when I get time (shortly).

This forum is a great way to communicate the days thoughts......my wife does not share my enthusiasm in rotor dynamics...can't think why?

Keep 'em turning!

08-21-2003 Over year old.

BIGRCR
Veteran
Location: Easley, South Carolina

Excellent! I would love to see the pictures!

Later,

BIGRCR- John Garst

08-22-2003 Over year old.

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Glad to hear you got it running! It is a nice engine, isn't it!

I though about the other carb too. Try it and tell us what you think of it. It may not be noticable as you think.

Open up the airbox like I did, see this picture of the before and after. The arrows point to the areas which I opened up. See my gallery for more pictures!

Click on this for a bigger view.

This lets the engine breath better.

---
Rich

08-22-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

BIGRCR
Veteran
Location: Easley, South Carolina

Rich,
Good idea! I thought of doing the same but instead ordered a Zenoah velocity stack and put it on. It was only $6 or so and it works very well. I was a little hesitant on using it due to it possibly giving me mid range and transition problems, but so far, so good!

Later,

BIGRCR- John Garst

08-23-2003 Over year old.

Xcellgasman
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

Hey Guys

Just a quick update on my G231, so far so good! I have put a gallon through her , she has settled down on the last 2 or 3 tanks and is really beginning to perform.
I currently run low needle 1 3/8 and high at 1 1/2 and the motor seems to develop good power all the way through right up to 12 degrees (thanks Bill!)...my old g23 had trouble much over 9.5 degrees after 10 gallons!
I think after another gallon she will be ready to let rip, I never really intended to use this machine for 3D stuff as I never thought it was capable, things could change....try and stop me!
With regards to plug type, the stock plug was a champion RZ7C which I am still using, the guys at my field use the NGK CMR7H in their RC230's (they say the champions tend to break down after around 5 gallons?), I guess this NGK would be OK in the G231 as the reach is the same, the insulator is a bit shorter and stubbier which would make no difference. Can anyone confirm this plug is OK for the 231 with no temperature worries etc? I can get hold of them easy as well which is always good. How many hours/gallons should I expect from a plug?
The 643 carb seems great too, the needles are not ridiculously sensitive as was the 167 and tuning (so far) has been a doddle.
I have removed the excess plastic from the airbox as per Rich (thanks Rich - good move!) and run with the standard foam filter, I am sure I can hear the intake sound far more now (it may be my vivid imagination!)
I am tempted to go for a K&N filter, but the way the motor is running at the moment I cannot really see the need.
Rich, I could not download the pictures of your GV-1 sensor for some reason. Could you e-mail a copy of them, I could well see me getting a governor in the near future so any help would be great.

Thanks to all for your help so far, you have made the whole experience far more fun & enjoyable.

Regards

08-26-2003 Over year old.

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > X-cell gasser G231 PUH Break-in

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