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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > x-cell clutch engagement and g23 tuning
 
 
vaportrail
Senior Heliman
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

When I start my g23, the clutch engages just above the minimum idle (sorry, don't know what rpm.) I have to hold on to the grip at all times. When I installed the engine, I had to use pressure to rotate the engine to vertical. I had to push forward on the bottom of the engine. I got the gap at the clutch equal on all sides but I am afraid it is side loaded. My gear lash didn't change noticably after installing the engine so I don't think the bearing block is moving but I am concerned about bearing and clutch life. Not to mention that the blades turn all the time. There is no torque at idle but this just means the clutch is slipping. Not good either right?

Do I need to get my idle lower? Here are my needles right now:
Low: 1
High: 1 3/8
x-cell 690 carbon blades

I've been playing with the needles with generally poor results when I deviate from these settings. The motor bogs under load and sometimes won't lift off. I am following Billme's steps as closely as I can. I need a longer throttle arm to get down to 100/100 atv (currently 110 high/96 low.) My pitch atv is 90/90 with 10'/-9'. I can shorten the arm here to get it to 100/100 but I don't think that will make that much difference. This motor just has no guts. It spins the blades just fine at low pitch. When I had someone tach it I was pulling 1700 at liftoff so I increased the mid range pitch. It still is overspeeding just below hover so I have a lot of work to do. Just wish it could swing the blades at high pitch.



08-11-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

If your running needles like that, you will never get it to idle correctly. Your running the needles backwards ....My minimum needles setting on the old engine is 1 turn on the high, and 1 1/4 on the low....Now, if your running the older Kalt /zenoah engine, the one that doesn't reguire engine spacer...It was 11/4 on high, and 11/8 on the low on most of those ...The timing on that engine was terrible...
If you have been running like this for a while, you might can save it by going to 1 1/16 on the high, and then go to 1 1/4 on the low, and open another 1/32 ....Your rings may be to worn at those old needle settings, but some do come to life, otherwise, change your rings, and do the recommended needle setting again...Put several gallons thru to give it a chance
Most people confuse loading with bogging on these engines...If you don't have enough load(pitch), your engine want load correctly...Most newbies think they need to lean more at this stage making the condistion even worse when they hear the loading part....
What is your pitch range you are trying to run?
On the throttle setup, so long as you are the same high and low with the ilde bar resting halfway on the idle set screw bevel, your ok
I'll be leaving tomorrow morning, so I might be late answering your questions...
Regards,
Bill
08-11-2003 Over year old.
 
 
vaportrail
Senior Heliman
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

The needle settings I mention were from the factory. I've tried richer on the low but got even less power. My plug is black with carbon. I am running Ozark camp fuel and 64:1 Amsoil. I have 2 tanks through it now. On my first tank, when it ran out I was about 4 feet up and the engine suddenly smoothed out (I am getting constant tail kicks most of the time.) This sounds like I am running way too rich most of the time.

Yesterday I thought I was making progress. The motor had decent power but after about 1 minute the engine lost power. I suspect overheating.

I am running +10/-9 pitch and +6 at 50%. The motor spools up great until I get around 5' at which point it starts to drop. I am hovering at 3/4-7/8 stick but should be hovering at 1/2. My throttle curve is straight 0-100. My pitch curve is 20-40-60-80-100. I am wondering if I have an air leak or something. I did have the carb off during construction. When it was losing power there wasn't any throttle response above 50%. I had to walk up to it to see the throtle arm move.

I will try your settings when the rain stops

Chuck
08-11-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Let the tail kick for a while...You need about 12to 13 degs for the 690s...Your engine is probally detecting no load with 9 or 10 degs on the high..
Are you running a airfilter, also is your carb the 167a?....Manoman, i hate trying to fix stuff over the keyboard...To run my setup on the old engines, with the 167a carb, you have to leave the filter off..The reason is the 167a ventura can't produce the right veloscity of air with a filter attach...
After tonight, I will be gone til Monday week.
Regards,
Bill
08-11-2003 Over year old.
 
 
vaportrail
Senior Heliman
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Yes, I have the 167 and an airfilter. I have a real dust problem where I fly. It's the abrasive silt variety. Should I just get the 603 carb and be done with it? Time is money even for a hobby and while I don't mind tinkering, if the upgrade buys me more power too, I should go for it. OK, I've made up my mind. Just need to find an online source.

I'll try running at 1 1/4 on the low needle tonight. I will also try adding pitch. I need to tweak the linkage as the washout is at the top at full pitch.

Thanks for the help and your patience with us newbies.

Chuck
08-11-2003 Over year old.
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Not to try to out guess Mr Billme, but do you have oil in your foam filter?

I had trouble once thinking I was leaning out my low needle, yet the engine seemed to run too rich. I took a paper towel and squeeze out the foam air filter with the paper towel hard to try to dry out all the oil in the filter. If you wet the paper towel with oil, perhaps you had too much oil on the filter.

If you don't have oil on the filter, try running once without the air filter, but stay away from dusty areas. Try flying over some grass, or wet down the area to keep the dust down.

No power sound lean, but a black plug and tail wobbling around sounds very rich.

Oh, as to your clutch engaging too soon. Have you tried to lower your idle speed? If you lower it does the engine not run? Slow it down, it should disengage.

---
Rich
08-12-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
vaportrail
Senior Heliman
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

I have just enough oil in the filter to show up. Just made a small stain on a paper towel. I'll try it without the foam next chance I get.

I found one of the carb screws was not very tight. Here's where some torque specs would be nice. So I cranked it down to a comfortable torque (worked on airplanes for 19 years so my wrist is only slightly out of cal.)

I put a very thin film of high temp silicone on the gasket to ensure there are no leaks. This may have been most of my problem.

I found some link specs on jkheli.com and set up most of the links that way. The elevator link was much much shorter than mine and since this is not ccpm and I have the travel I need, I left that one at the factory length.

Right now the engine's min idle is right at the clutch engagement point. I hope tuning will get the idle down.

I got the throttle to 105 high/98 low on atvs so I am happy with that. Now if I can get the engine running right, this bird should really fly.

Chuck
08-12-2003 Over year old.
 
 
bmfrd
Heliman
Location: Maryland

Tuning your engine

I had similar problems with my MA gasser. I tinkered for three months trying to get the engine to run right. My solution was to ditch the airfilter, the 167a carb and replace it with the 643 carb from Horizon and the ventury from Vario. Out of the box had the same power as my Vario but not quite as smooth. Small adjustment(less than an 1/8th of turn) on the high needle and no more problems

Additionaly, I'm running 710 blades with the 33" tail boom.
08-13-2003 Over year old.
 
 
vaportrail
Senior Heliman
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Billme, where do I send the check...

Talk about a difference! I set 1 1/4 on the low and 1 1/8 on the high. This thing climbs better than my Raptor (tt39) now! It is probably not optimal but it's a start! Now is when I get to fine tune it. I still have a tail kick but it is once every few seconds and that sounds OK from what I've read. The winds were so high and gusty I couldn't get an rpm reading. The bird was jumping up and down about 3 feet despite my best left stick efforts. So I didn't do anything fancy. It ran great for the 3/4 tank that I burned though.

Thanks again, BIllme and everybody else here!

Chuck
08-13-2003 Over year old.
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Chuck,

I'm glad you got your gasser running better!

With your idle at 1 turn, you were way too lean. Strange you said your plug was black. Maybe that was because of a prior running session when you were too rich.

---
Rich
08-15-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > x-cell clutch engagement and g23 tuning
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