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Off Topics > Metal Blades used during demo at 3D Masters
 
 
Raffy
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Maybe we should go ahead and tell FAA to make a law and ban metal blades ASAP!
The minute an accident happen, this hobby could be in Jeopardy!
08-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

Maybe those of you that are so concerned of being involved in an incident and/or being sued, should consider packing up your helis and finding another hobby ... like knitting. It's certainly a lot safer.

Damage or potential damage from metal blades vs composite blades has not been demonstrated. There is about as much substance here as there was when the scientists were saying that man would not survive breaking the sound barier about 50 years ago.

Wolfgang
08-06-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

Nigel,

If it's law in the UK, how come the document is titled "A GUIDE TO SAFE FLYING"? ... "GUIDE" ? ? ?

Wolfgang
08-06-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Shagga
Senior Heliman
Location: Wiltshire, UK

You are wrong!

Hey Nifty Nigel

Shoot me down in flames if you can but -

I have read the CAP 658 by following your own link.

If you read it carefully, the ONLY legal bit is chapter 2 which covers definition of a small aircraft, models over 20kg, Articles 87, 63 and 64.

The section which covers metal blades (Annex D) is outside the legal requirements.

The rest of the guide is just that - a guide. Hence the title:

"CAP 658 Model Aircraft: a guide to safe flying.

So metal baldes are not illegal!
08-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
RotorX
Key Veteran
Location: London

As soon as the **** hits the fan, the first thing that is gonna happen, is life will get harder for us, we try to keep it as safe as posible not only to protect public/property, but also our flying rights.

I would not mind too much if some one flew metals near by, but i tell ya one thing i sure as hell be thinking about it, having been in close quaters with a few dancing helis,

Plenty of times we had to jump on a heli and pull the line/block muffler to shut it down, but by then the blades are gone, how the hell you gonna shut one down that doin the funky chicken with blades that dont break so easily.


Kaz
08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Wolfgang,

The first paragraph of your previous post seems to show a disregard to safe operation of these flying lawn mowers and for the preservation of the hobby in general.

It reminds me of the guys at the flying field when they say, "bah, we don't need to worry about the planes being loud, we've been flying them like this for years." Then one day the town enacts a noise ordinance and a few neighbors (probably people that just bought their house in the new development that was built right near the field) complain and the next thing they know they don't have a flying field anymore. Unless of course they don't mind selling all their nitro stuff and taking up flying electrics that is. All it takes is a couple of high profile accidents and a few eager beaver politicians and bingo, government regulation of the hobby. They've already been after it because a few dolts think they're a national security threat. Is it really wise to throw another log on the fire? I know it doesn't make sense, but that's one thing politicians and people with nothing better to do with themselves do, piss in other peoples' cherrios and impose bs rules and regs over something they know nothing about. I'd prefer to not make it any easier for them.

As for your second paragraph, that flies in the face of what any competant metalurgist or helicopter certified AP mechanic will tell you about AL rotor blades. And remember this, full scale helis don't do rippers, death spirals, tic-tocs, or any of the other punishing maneuvers that we do with our helis. That doesn't help matters any with regard to fatigue.
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

This is for Dragon2115,

You confuse not being scared to do what has been demonstrated as safe for a disreguard for safety just because the rest of the world isn't already doing it. Back in 1910, would you also accuse the Wright brothers of unsafe operation?

As far as the idiot moving in next to a flying field and then complaining about the noise, he will have little say because he was not there first. You only you loose that kind of battle if you lay down and let the other guy drive all over you. You may choose to give up your rights that easily, but I will not.

And now for your metalurgy comment. If you had some stress and cycle figures, I would be glad to listen to you. But since you have no such hard evidence, just heresay by invalid comparisons which totally ignore scale factors, I suggest you be quiet until you have something more substantial.

I don't dislike you, just your position.

Wolfgang
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
E_eves
Senior Heliman
Location: Cincinnati, OH

All I know is this...that HUGE RC heli rocks!!! Just make sure you stand back a few football fields to watch it, just in case
08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Wolfgang,

Quote 
You confuse not being scared to do what has been demonstrated as safe for a disreguard for safety just because the rest of the world isn't already doing it.


Demonstrated as safe, how did you determine this? Is it based on a handfull of people that fly them and that nobody has been killed yet? Or simply because none of this handfull of people have reported a failure? What's the long term track record of these blades? I'm sure that flying a scaler and flying it in a scale fashion at low rpm would do quite a bit for longevity. But what about when they're flown in hard 3D at 1900 rpm for a large number of flights? Any data to support that they are safe under those conditions? What you decide to fly when you're alone in a controlled location is up to you. Just don't endanger others in some quest for the latest and greatest piece of eye candy.

Quote 
As far as the idiot moving in next to a flying field and then complaining about the noise, he will have little say because he was not there first.


Don't bet the farm on it son. This may have worked for some gun clubs but it has failed miserably when it comes to flying clubs. Gun clubs usually own the land and are therefore taxpayers of the town they reside in. Most flying clubs are on public land under some agreement with the controlling agency such as a conservation commision, parks and recreation, town, or state agency and are NOT taxpayers of the town. The new housing development is just chock full of home owning taxpayers, who also btw are probably registered to vote in that town as well. Now, who do you think wins when push comes to shove? You're not going to like the answer 7 out of 10 times. What you're saying is right, the people that bought the houses should have looked into the neighborhood before they bought them and if they moved in next to a flying club or whatever, oh well, live with it. But that's not how it works ultimately.

Been there, done that. We lost a field that we had been flying at for several years all because one person dropped their plane into some guys back yard. There was no property damage but he complained to the city council and they listened to him. When it became our turn to speak there was only one person there from that town on our side. They wouldn't listen to anyone other than a resident of the town. Game over, one stroke of the pen later and no model aircraft flying was allowed at that field again. The field was posted 2 days later. THAT is how politics in suburbia works. Hope that it doesn't come to a town near you.

Quote 
If you had some stress and cycle figures, I would be glad to listen to you. But since you have no such hard evidence, just heresay by invalid comparisons which totally ignore scale factors, I suggest you be quiet until you have something more substantial.

Well sport, I'll tell you what, this was discussed at length here about a year or so ago and there were people involved that were far more qualified to comment on the subject than you. In fact we even had one guy that had designed, built, and flown his own full scale heli. So thanks, but I think I'll trust their opinion over yours based on their qualifications in the field rather than "they're safe because they haven't killed anyone yet".
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Nifty Nigel
Heliman
Location:

I have contacted the legal department of the Civil Aviation Authority regarding the question of whether CAP 658 is only a guide or whether items described therein as imperatives represent legal requirements. I will post their answer here as and when I receive it.
08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

Fatigue is the only concern and if the inside of the blade is pressurized and the pressure can be monitored, cracks can be detected prior to failure (just like full scale)

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous
08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

Doug,
Quote 
Fatigue is the only concern and if the inside of the blade is pressurized and the pressure can be monitored, cracks can be detected prior to failure (just like full scale)

Fatigue is a concern on full scale all the time. The pressurization is only for detecting cracks early on by a pressure sensor on the tubular frame members and/or blades.

Draggon2115,
Like I said earlier, you would be the one to give the Wright brothers a hard time back in 1910 about their new fangled flying contraption because, in your opinion, it's not safe and makes too much noise.

I really don't understand why you are taking the part of the antagonist on the metal blade issue without knowing your facts. The only thing you have shown is the ability to parrot the comments of others. Show me that you actually know the details of the issue or be quiet. Your invalid corelations and suppositions don't cut it. Present some facts and data if you want credibility.

By the way, "son" and "sport" are not usually labels that fit me. I'm son to only one man and he is in his 70's and I'm not a sport when someone is making a lot of noise and little substance.

This aught to get the pot stiring.

Wolfgang
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ssteampro
Heliman
Location: Ohio

Hard facts

What we really need here, and it has been touched on by many, is someone to offer to ramp-up a set of woods, carbons, metals etc in a similar way and fasion as the "Crash Project" video was put together. The variables need to be documented etc. I have never even seen metals before so I have no clue. I'm getting the impression that the metals are for the larger helis which typically run lower head speeds then the smaller helis or 3D helis. This might even be something that the manufacturers would donate to also.

I know this might start some crap, as the actual test requirments might become a point of argument, but when you get right down to it....flying these blades into some bullistic jellitine is about the only way this thread will get resolved to a greater extent. .....jmo


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08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
alfred
Veteran
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

A lot that has been said here is real bull.
Would I fly metal blades....you bet.
The metal blade is so dangerous? What about the metal blade holder that lets go with the blade still attached?
The next argument is that they haven't proven to be safe. Well, not much chance of that if they get banned before that can be done.
CF blades were at some stage an unknown factor and everybody that used them was taken risks until they proved through time to be safe.

What is the pro for using Alu blades? I believe that they will stay together in a crash and with that would be safer then the CF blade that is shooting of bits like bullets.

In the 30 years of model flying I have known 3 people that have lost fingers in propellers. One of the guys manged to loose 2 fingers in 2 separate incidences.
I was there at the last accident he had. He manged to stick his finger in his propeller that was spinning at around 18000RPM.
The propeller used was a Nylon/fibre type that is still used today and is also the most common one sold.
Haven't seen them banned.

Metal fatigue would be an issue, but at how many hours of usage? a 1000?
What about the plastic blade holders that have let go?
They haven't been banned either.

The fact is that model heli flying has a certain risk attached just like motor bike riding, horse riding, hang gliding.......

With the attitude that some people show all that will stop.
then we can all sit in the front of the picture tube and watch the world pass by while we are in our safe rocking chair...how exiting
08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Wolfgang,

Quote 
Like I said earlier, you would be the one to give the Wright brothers a hard time... blah, blah, blah.


If they decided to try it in the middle of a crowd of spectators, you're damn right I would. So would anyone with half an once of common sense in their head.

Quote 
I really don't understand why you are taking the part of the antagonist on the metal blade issue without knowing your facts.


Another big assumption on your part, just like the one about these blades being safe without anything to back it up other than nobody has been injured or killed by them yet. Otoh, my facts come from people with PhD' s materials science, AP mechanics, and machinists. Apparently you feel that in order to be knowledgable about any subject one must possess that degree or be in that line of work, yourself excluded of course. Why do I take this stance on these blades? Simple, I don't want to see anyone hurt or killed over a piece of eye candy.

Quote 
The only thing you have shown is the ability to parrot the comments of others.

And the only thing you've shown is a total disregard for anyone else but yourself simply because you want a new toy. Let me ask you this, do you have to be hit in the head with a tire iron to know it hurts, or can you believe the opinions of others that have already had it happen?

Quote 
Show me that you actually know the details of the issue or be quiet. Your invalid corelations and suppositions don't cut it. Present some facts and data if you want credibility.

Right back at ya. You have provided nothing, NOTHING, as to the questions posed to you about how you determined these blades were safe to use. All you have been able to rattle off is that they must be ok because nothing bad has happened so far.

Here's a little something for you to ponder. In a heli that has a small vibration, why do frames made of AL crack when frames made of CF don't? And of the AL frame pieces that cracked what warning did they give that they were about to do so?

Quote 
By the way, "son" and "sport" are not usually labels that fit me.

Maybe so, but they were far more polite than several I can think of that do fit you to a tee.


ssteampro,

That would make for an interesting test. My concern however is over the fatiguing issue and the catastrophic failure that results from it. Any blade is savage when it comes in contact with flesh. Just ask the Bergen rep in the UK that lost his hand and some fingers from the other hand when he got tangled up with them.


ctseaplane,

Quote 
Its all speculation. nobody here has a doctorate in metallurgy with years of research in this area. You are all trying to sway opinion based on your own opinion which is based on internet documents and assumption.

Wrong, when this topic came up on this board before I talked to two AP's (one plane, one heli), three machinists with extensive experience in working with AL, SS, and Ti, and two metalurgists each with a PhD in materials science. (Nice thing about working for a cryogenics company, being molecule chasers there are many very talented people on staff.) Every one of them said the same thing, unless you have the proper equipment and take the time to inspect the blades on a regular basis they're a very bad idea. And this didn't include the people that posted the same stuff that had backgrounds in the field.
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

Dragon2115,
Are you going to keep being the nay sayer or are you going to actually contribute something positive?

Wolfgang
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Wes
Senior Heliman
Location: Thousand Oaks CA

options

I think you'll get even worse results if you ask them what it would be like to get hit by a CF blade. A friend of mine lost his entire arm in a CF prop on his DA 50. They were able to re attach it and he still flies yet he keeps going, 1 guy has a alum prop at our field that is vary scale. The tip speed on these objects is so fast that I dont think it really matters what they are made of...Structural integrity did you maybe tell your People with phd's and A&p's the duration of each flight or the life of a model. I think they could be a good idea, I wouldn't wanna be a test pilot for them though nor does anyone else it seems like here in the US till we find somone who flies the blades.

Everyone is wasting breath and going in circles, I don't see this post going anywhere posative fast.
08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Dragon2115
Key Veteran
Location: New England

Apparently Wolfgang the only thing you will consider as a "positive contribution" is one that tells you what you want to hear. Sorry, but that's not going to happen when I know the opposite is true. Deal with it. Whether you like it or not a "positive contribution" is also one that may mean that you can't have those nice shiny metal blades for a very good reason.

Btw, are you going to address those questions I put to you about the AL vs. CF frame pieces cracking, or are you going to simply ignore them and try to divert attention away from them since an honest answer would prove you wrong?
08-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ssteampro
Heliman
Location: Ohio

blades

Quote 
That would make for an interesting test. My concern however is over the fatiguing issue and the catastrophic failure that results from it. Any blade is savage when it comes in contact with flesh. Just ask the Bergen rep in the UK that lost his hand and some fingers from the other hand when he got tangled up with them.



Dragon2115....

I guess my only point here in actually doing a test of this nature, would be to run the blades, spooled up to normal rpm for that heli, into a substance that is considered by the FBI to be a suitable substitute for human flesh. My only point being this: if you place a metal blade on a head turning 4rpm and stick your hand in it....what will it do? If you replace the blade with a barbors razor turning at 4rpm....what will it do? I know this is excessivly exaggerated, but I'm just trying to inject something constructive into this thread. After everything is said and done with this thread, and it is left out in the dust and we all have moved on, wouldn't it be nice to have a short video clip of different tests performed on these blades so you could make up your own mind? For all I know, if you spool up a set of woodies to 1800rpm, they most likely would disintigrate and absorb the energy upon impact with very little damage to the heli, but also launch parts everyware. At the same flip of the coin, if you spool up a set of metals to 1100rpm and impact the same item, they might not disintigrate, but cause more damage to the heli since the heli is now absorbing the energy.

As for the fatigue factor, all blades go through that and are usually marketed for the designed perpose. In todays "environment" of litigation, I can only assume that the makers of these metal blades would take great care in their design and construction to insure minimum risk or failure. Still...anyway you look at it...getting hit with ANY fast moveing part of a helicopter will hurt and do some damage......something us pilots should try our best to prevent during our pre-flight checks.....

Just a thought.......

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08-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
alfred
Veteran
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

Wrong guys
Screw the theoretical bull****.
I am going to order a set of 550mm for my Rappy today.
And I will make up my own mind.
As a German with relations still over there I have spoken to some and the Laws are still the same.
If you as a manufacturer sell a faulty product that can be proven to endanger peoples health knowingly then you don't just simply loose your business and everything else, but your ass is going to be in gail.
These blades have been around for a few years now and I haven't heard of any accident yet, heard of plenty with composite ones.
08-08-2003 Over year old.
 
 
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