RunRyder - Lousy Power From My Hacker B20-22S

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e-Electric Motors & Controllers > Lousy Power From My Hacker B20-22S

Adam
Heliman
Location: Pacific Palisades, CA

I have had great success with my CP Hornet with a stock Speed 300 motor. I recently got a Hacker with a Phoenix 10. I was expecting a real increase in power and duration. However, I'm finding that the Hacker seems to have either the same or slightly less power than my stock set up.

Here is my ESC setup:
1. Voltage cut off option 1 (4v)
2. Voltage overload option 2 (sensitive)
3. No brake
4. Timing advance option 2 (recommended in instructions for the Hacker and described as a compromise between power and efficiency)
5. Fixed throttle and both low and high gov modes (see below)

I'm using the same 8 cell powerex packs I used with my 300, a 10 tooth pinion, and symmetrical "Walt" blades. My AUW (according to my cheap digital kitchen scale that measures in 2 gram increments) is 302 grams. W/out battery it's saying 204 grams. I realize my Hornet is a bit fat, but I'm comparing with the speed 300 and nothing but the motor and controller have changed.

I'm getting lousy power in all of the following configurations:

1. Fixed throttle in the Phoenix 10 and the same (similar) throttle/pitch curves in my Tx that I was using with the stock motor. I've adjusted my throttle ATV's so that the motor comes on just as I raise the stick, and the light comes on solid just as the stick reaches full throttle. In this mode, the Hacker seems no more powerful than the 300, and maybe less! Duration is ok, but nothing special (about 8 minutes of hovering before it sinks into GE). I usually get about 6-7 mins of hovering with the Speed 300.

2. Low gov mode, throttle ATVs at 150, throttle curve 0, 100, 100, 100, 100. Heli won't even lift off.

3. High gov mode, throttle ATVs at 100, throttle curve 0, 67, 67, 67, 67. Heli flies, but climb out is sluggish compared to the 300 motor. I've also tried higher throttle curve settings, but I seem to be limited by power in the gov mode just as in the fixed throttle mode.

Any ideas? From what I've read, I ought to be getting some serious power out of this thing! I clearly don't have that. What could I be doing wrong?

Thanks.

05-22-2003 Over year old.

j.f
Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

My advice would be think about changing your battery packs to lipos... probably a 3 cell etec 1200 pack would give you the oomph you want.....

James

05-22-2003 Over year old.

Adam
Heliman
Location: Pacific Palisades, CA

Thanks. Others are telling me the same thing. Guess I was just under a misimpression that the Hacker would out-perform the S300 with the NiMH packs. In fairness, the duration is a bit better, and I'm now thinking that the power is about the same. Supposedly, the heli will be a real rocket with a 3cell E-tec, and the real advantage of the Hacker is its ability to take the higher voltage of a 3 cell li-po pack. Guess I'll be buying lots of new batteries.

05-23-2003 Over year old.

stevem
Senior Heliman
Location: Oklahoma

The B20-22S has a Kv of only 4091 RPM/V which is similar to a 280bb motor. I believe the speed 300 has a much higher Kv of around 5000+ RPM/V. You need more voltage! A larger pinion would work, but may put the motor in a position where it is not very happy RPM wise.

Good luck!

Steve

05-24-2003 Over year old.

Pleskini
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, TX

If the B20-22S is not a performance increase at 4091 rpm/v then how are people have so much success and fun with the Astro Flight 010 which is only 3570 rmp/v? I was under the impression, although I have not seen any stats on the stock 280 motor, that it had a much lower rpm/v that you was mentioned above by Steve. Anyone have the actual stats on this or the upgrade 380 that will be released soon?

05-27-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

stevem
Senior Heliman
Location: Oklahoma

Pleskini,

I am not sure what your qestion is? The stats on the 280BB come from Hobby Lobby's site. I have no real way of verifying this.

The stock 300 motor that comes with the Hornet does indeed have a higher Kv than a 280bb and higher than the B20-22S. It's just that many are running 3 lithiums on that motor in that heli. This puts the voltage on a fresh pack around 12.6V and around 9 when depleted.

I am just going from sheer numbers here as I have zero experience with that motor. I still think that it is a voltage probelm. Parhaps the cells are not getting a good charge, or there are other losses involved.

Steve

05-27-2003 Over year old.

Pleskini
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, TX

I actually had not seen the stats from Hobby Lobby. I have not looked hard, but was unable to find the general stats for a speed 280, 300, 380, and 400. What I was asking was what the stats were. I too am just learning about how all this electric stuff works and what parameters affect performance in what way. I was just supprised to hear that a 22S would have less performance than a $12 280, but then again if the turns and rpm/v is that much higher, I can understand. I had not heard that people were using an extra cell, but that too would of course increase the output. I was also wondering how people are having such good performance on a 10 tooth pinion (same as stock) with the Astro 010 which also has so much lower of rpm/v? Could it be the number of turns gives it the torque it needs rather than the overall rpm, which allows it to run cooler and also use a higher pinion? Just questions I am trying to figure out.

Also anyone have, or know where to find the stats on the Orion Elite Modifiied? I just ordered on since it was so cheap to replace my burned out 280.

05-27-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

russman
Heliman
Location: Victoria, B.C.Canada

I give up!!!

I've been chasing my tail with the Hornet for the last time. My CP is set up identical with Walt Ferar's, and with Hacker 22s, Ph10 in gov mode, 3Kokams, it will fly around indoor for about 5 mins.....that's it. Outdoor, I can get about three cracks at a loop or roll, and then the battery sags.....after landing with the "dead" battery, my orbit will only give it about 5 or 600mah (so I'm not appreciating almost half the Kokam capacity of 1020mah). No matter how many upgrades, fiddling with radio settings, there's no way in hell I can get it to fly anything like Walt's or any of the other in the videos seen on the net. I realize some of these guys are extremely talented pilots, but according to the local gas heli guys, I'm not a total loss myself. One thing is for sure, after struggling with the Hornet for 6 months, when I got my Falcon SE2 with OS50, things came much easier....low inverted hover, flips, rolls, backwards flight, autos, after only 1 gallon of fuel. I've come to the conclusion that micros are only good for indoor (no acro) and so will probably have my $1000 Hornet up for sale for half that price soon.

Russell Bowman

08-07-2003 Over year old.

AtomHeartMother
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Ohio

Russman, the kokam 1020's are not up to the task. That's why you're seeing such short and underpowered flights. A 3series 1020 kokam battery is only good for 2.5 to 3 amps continuous draw. Maybe 4.5 amps in very short bursts. You're just sapping the voltage on the poor littler fellers before they can dump their capacity.
Put a 3 series 1200mah E-tech in that puppy and watch it go vertical ! The newer high output kokams would work as well, but the older 1020's just can't handle the amp draw the hacker is requiring. Don't give up....pour enough money into it and it'll fly great...lol

Try the E-techs in either 2series or 3series and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Oh...if you have multiple 2series 1020 kokam packs you can make a Y harness and run a 2s2p(equalling 2040mah) kokam and get very long run times and the 2s2p should be able to handle the amps.

08-09-2003 Over year old.

Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

Hello

The point of Hacker is a preformance increase but it comes from the fact that you can use higher voltages with out killing the motor. Also brushless motors are more efficient and the controller have very helpful features such as a head speed governor.

As for your power problem, I would highly suggest that you try 3 Etech 1200s or if you want lighter then the a 3s2p pack made from Kokam 340SHD cells. Both of these pack are up to the task to giving you consistantly high voltage for most of the flight(around 10 - 15 mins depending on your setup) and a much lower weight(20 grams lower with the Etech pack and 40 grams lower with the the Kokam 340 pack when compared to your current setup).

THE KOKAM 1020s ARE NOT UP TO THE TASK OF POWERING ANYTHING BUT THE LIGHEST SETUPS. If you are using these cells then that is probably your problem. DO NOT waist your time with these cells as there are much better cells on the market.

Just so you know I use Etech 1200 packs in my supercharged Piccolo Pro with a current sucking Hacker 20-18L and I get around 10 mins of banging it around or 13 mins of lighter flying. Any my setup is definitally not the lightest one, it is around 340 grams flying. As you can see if I am getting monster power with my setup then you can definitally get the same with your setup and the correct cells.

Carlo
PS: If you are wondering here is a pic of my Pro

http://rcgroups.com/gallery/data/50...033SH-thumb.jpg

08-10-2003 Over year old.

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e-Electric Motors & Controllers > Lousy Power From My Hacker B20-22S

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