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Aerial Photography and Video > Photography Insurance

Ralph
Senior Heliman
Location: CT

Hello Everyone,
I have been following this posting for a while and I find it rather interesting that none of the manufacturers of camera rigs have any comments to add. Especially, since one of them told me that the AMA will cover me for commercial work. I have'nt actually contacted the the AMA to prove or disprove what I was told, but I have read in many posting that this is an untrue statement.

I, like many of you, have a camera rig 1/2 built. I was really excited about getting started, but it looks like it will not be possible to do more than practice at this point. I'm seroiusly considering selling everything. The risks just don't justify the means. It really would be nice to supplement my income doing something I enjoy, but with the unavailablity of or $$$$ insurance it is just not worth it.

To the manufacturers out there, what are you doing for insurance for your camera rigs or are you afraid to tell us.

Just my two cents.

Good luck to all of you.

Ralph

07-18-2003 Over year old.

lowandslow
Key Veteran
Location: Spring Hill, TN

The AMA will not cover you doing commercial work.

07-18-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

dgxco
Senior Heliman
Location: Greenville, SC

Insurance: Lack Of

I had 2 units purchased from commercial manufacturers. The only one that was up front with me was Larry Bergen at Bergen R/C. When I purchased a Observer we discussed this matter extensively and he was quite up front in confirming the lack of insurance availability. I was ready to purchase a industrial twin from him to modify for photography, but rather than give me false hope to get a sale he was up front and I deeply respect him for that. Others have given me the old dance act and even though I was ready to plunk down a few grand I was told that I couldn't get any information until after the sale... come on! need I say more? I have spoken to a bunch of great people from this board and have received similiar information. I had invested way too much money and time to get something going. I would love to go at if full bore but I dont want to loose my house, my car and my life in the very remote possibility of any loss. People have mentioned using a boom and that is insurable although still not as cheap as I think it should be. I have spoken to the AMA, AOPA, as well as some of the biggest brokers including Brown & Brown and I have not received a fulfilled promise.
I enjoy flying and have been doing so without an accident for 15 years but that doesn't entice anyone to write insurance. So it looks as though when I sell off my last rig I may invest in a large scale heli and just enjoy the recreational flying that the AMA will insure me at as long as I follow all their rules. Good luck to all.

Dark Angel

07-18-2003 Over year old.

airshares
Senior Heliman
Location: Camarillo, CA

insurance

Sooo, cant we just work without insurance? It seems to be the only way to do it. Cant we just get people who hire us to sign releases of liability? I have to sign stuff like that all the time and so do you guys... so why not make our clients do the same?? Besides, the insurers job is not to protect you. Its to figure out the best way to collect your money in premiums and then figure out how not to pay you when you have a claim. In most cases you wont get protected because they will find some loop hole in what you were doing wrong while you were doing it. Then they will drop you. I think the best insurance is preparation of your filming area and the people around you.

07-18-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

dgxco
Senior Heliman
Location: Greenville, SC

Without Insurance

Sure you can try to work without insurance. BUT just getting a release does not get you out of the woods. There a thousands of scenarios that could occur that you cannot protect from. It could be as simple as a mechanical problem and you tap a passing car and bam she plows into another car. Guess who is at fault. As a further concern even if you get a release signed, if there is a loss and any lawyer can show even a tiny bit on negligence on your part from a too old battery to blowing your nose while flying they will come after you with a appetite for your assets. Even if you LLC or Inc you can still be held personally liable. If someone decides to go it without coverage it is their choice and as long as something doesn't happen you will be fine. But if there is an accident or situation you stand to loose everything that you own. This business doesn't pay enough to assume that level of risk to me.

Dark Angel

07-18-2003 Over year old.

airshares
Senior Heliman
Location: Camarillo, CA

"you tap a passing car and bam she plows into another car. Guess who is at fault. As a further concern even if you get a release signed, if there is a loss and any lawyer can show even a tiny bit on negligence on your part from a too old battery to blowing your nose while flying they will come after you with a appetite for your assets."

This falls under film site preparation and the people around you. If you cant film safely then i guess dont do that job. Besides if you had insurance and this instance you mentioned above happened, they wont cover you either.......that tiny bit of Negligence is all they need to not pay as well........sooo you will lose everything you own anyway.........

One good thing is that I dont own anything.........my car is financed, i rent an apartment........and if i owned a house it would be financed too.......so i dont really have much to lose at this point anyway.

Dont get me wrong im not about breaking laws and hating insurance carriers.....i carry all the coverage on my car and would opt to carry it on most items i would own its just that the reality is....100% of the time they will try their hardest NOT to pay your claim. And if you dont have it together tighter than a dolphins @$! then you wont be covered anyway.

07-18-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

lowandslow
Key Veteran
Location: Spring Hill, TN

True again. That's why we stopped using the R/C chopper. It just wasn't worth the risk. All it takes is one. Most of the areas in San Diego are heavily populated and whenever we took off it seemed onlookers came out of the woodwork. We decided to only take lower risk jobs such as industrial and commercial areas where we could shoot on the weekends with out a lot of people and cars around. The money just didn't justify the means though. To do it full time you'd need to do at least several jobs every day and then the risk compounds. We decided to make the move to event photography, safer and better money. Plus you get the best seats in the house at all kinds of fun events.

07-18-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Ralph
Senior Heliman
Location: CT

Still waiting to see one of the camera rig manufactures step up to the plate an share their secrets to liability insurance.

Ralph

07-19-2003 Over year old.

airshares
Senior Heliman
Location: Camarillo, CA

secrets

Hey guys, maybe their secret is that they dont have insurance!! They dont want anyone to know that its entirely possible to run these types of business without it by just taking risk. They want us to think they are all doing it by the book and have some special insurance that none of us are able to get. Give me a break.....go to the state the camera rig manufactuer is located in and do a search for all the insurance carriers there and find out who is covering...........Another way may be to call Dunn and Bradstreet and have a background investigation done on the camera rig company. They should be able to tell the credit history and wether or not they carry insurance.(Ive Never Tried it but we do use it for other purposes)
Anyone called an insurance company that specializes in photography equipment and film productions??? Im in the aviation business and yes we do carry insurance but does that mean we wont get sued and all our assets taken when the #@!% hits the fan..........NO
we do have every possible person we come in contact with sign very detailed releases of liability. Those may not work either but they give you some AMMO for the battle should you ever go to that extent.

07-19-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

airshares
Senior Heliman
Location: Camarillo, CA

One more piece of my dollar.........Pay to have a good $300 an hour lawyer who knows his stuff and have him draw up a Release of Liability contract for the Client you are doing business for that makes them responsible for damages done while filming their project. Sure some may never do that but most probably will. Everytime you go to a sports event, have valet park your car, fly on an airline, etc. youve probably released them from all liability in some form or another.

07-20-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

AirShot
Heliman
Location: Blairsville, GA.

Good Advice!

Good advice......been there, and done that. I would be happy to share my lengthy contract with anyone interested. Just email me and we can best figure out how to get it to you. But the truth of the matter is, that piece of paper will not amount to much when it comes right down to it. It is a professional approach, but insurance is unfortunately going to be a necessity. I am wanting to strictly stick with residental and commercial, but there is so many other things you could do with it to make money. Certain things where insurance is not going to be necessary. I am not giving up, there are guys out there that do have it, to what degree I don't know! I realize that some guys are obtaining it by not answering all of the questions properly, or as soon as they leave the ground, they are not covered. I just have to believe that it is out there.

07-20-2003 Over year old.

JamesLNM
Heliman
Location: Southern Arizona

Did you try John at Airfoil? I faintly remember that one of his inducements was to provide insurance or at least leads to insurance if you bought his system. For a while there he was loudly proclaiming to all on this forum that insurance was no problem. Come to think of it though, his proclamation has been silent now for a while.

We were never successful in securing insurance for our filming so we closed down that end and kept the full-size end going since our Bell Ranger is heavily insured.

Jim

07-20-2003 Over year old.

Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

Insurance UK

Any comments about insurance in UK? What is BMFA's possition?

07-24-2003 Over year old.

Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

Insurance UK

I had a look at BMFA's website and found this...

-----------------------------------------------
Any form of flying for trade or commercial enterprises, whether paid or unpaid, is not covered by the basic policy (See ‘Exclusions’ and the section on ‘Model Traders Insurance’).
-----------------------------------------------

Model Trader’s Insurance

The Association has made available to the model trade a special insurance to cover their flying at displays etc., subject to the following conditions:

(1) That the model trader be registered as such with the BMFA.
(2) That all persons flying for the trader must be members of the BMFA and must hold a BMFA Power Achievement Scheme 'B' certificate.

Registration will also qualify a Model Trader for access to other trade insurances offered by the Associations insurance company.
----------------------------------------------

Well I hope the trader's insurance covers for aerial photography.

07-24-2003 Over year old.

diZeaZed
Senior Heliman
Location: Bunnell, Fl.

Just thinking out loud here, but I've been following this thread for a while. I too would love to do a part time thing with an aerial ship, but insurance never even crossed my mind until I came across this thread. In leau of not having insurance, or at best, the liability waiver, is there anything that could be done to lessen the risks involved? Lowandslow mentioned limiting jobs to areas that have less risk potential such as rural or commercial. Along this thought, could a business (albeit part time) be successful with careful consideration given to client location? What if the business was incorporated. I'm NOT knowledgeable about these matters, but have always heard that in this scenario it would be the corporation that gets sued, not it's principals.
On the other side, how about truley anal equipment and skill preparation. I see full size heli's everyday that don't crash due to equipment failure, could we be more diligent in our preventative equipment maintenance and redundant systems?
I know all of this could be called "window dressing", the end justifying the means, but it sure looks like insurance in the U.S. is not going to happen, so it seems that alternatives must be examined if a viable business is being contemplated.
Are these legitimate arguments, or should I wake up from this dream I'm having?
Jojo

07-24-2003 Over year old.

Malorie
Elite Veteran
Location: Paw squared, MI

The full scale helis aren't piloted by radio control. That is a pretty hard one to preflight or maintain away. My suggestion has always been to have redundant servo systems so that if a sevo failed, the twin servo would carry the load for the remainder of that flight. That still doesn't guarranty anything, Lockouts happen. You can certainly reduce your risks but you are still piloting by radio control which can be unreliable and has no redundancy.

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

07-25-2003 Over year old.

iedit4tv
Senior Heliman
Location: Santa Clarita, California

We need insurance

'One more person throws his hat into the ring!' A step closer to the magical 25 - 30 people needed for insurance. Count me in.

07-26-2003 Over year old.

AirShot
Heliman
Location: Blairsville, GA.

Thanks for HELPING!

Hello iedit4tv,

I want to tell you thanks for helping out. We got to quit complaining about it and just find it.....

Finding someone who will write a policy is going to be a little easier with 25 people I am sure than with 5. Then again, if one of the 25 doesn't have a clue to what he or she is doing...crash and burns.....we all go down with him. I definetly see it both ways. But at this point, I would like to have it to loose, than not have it at all.

One more note. It has been talked about by several of you, but I would like to say it again. I am sure several people have a policy, but DO you have a policy? I have had several companies ready and willing to write a policy, but when you look it over, I mean really look it over and read all the fine print, you are absolutely paying for what seems to be in our line of work only a piece of paper!

Keep trying, I called 15 agencies just yesterday, took me only 2 1/2 hours. We will find it!

AirShot

07-26-2003 Over year old.

lowandslow
Key Veteran
Location: Spring Hill, TN

07-26-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Malorie
Elite Veteran
Location: Paw squared, MI

What may help with your 25-30 people is to require flight logs, maintanence logs, preflight logs and such. That way an insurence company would have something to show that the bare essentials are being taken care of to reduce the risk of just anybody being taken on.

Just a thought,
Malorie

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

07-26-2003 Over year old.

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