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Aerial Photography and Video > Winter or cold weather flying

Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

Nooobs...that's just shocking! My internet is a bit too slow tonight so I can't watch it, but I believe ya...I believed ya before you did the test, you didn't have to do it!

I knew the plastic gear or rather, I remembered after we had the discussion about it!

The plastic gear would cause static and being non-conductive the charge is going to build up until the plastic let's it go into the air. The ground strap can't conduct it out of the plastic, so it is just there.
The way I think comes from doing this over the years on various things. This boat for example, every frigging thing is grounded to each other through the grounding system. I didn't design this concept, but it's been standard practice in what I work on since I remember.
Also, part of what I was going after was any RF noise generated by the metal bearings spinning round. My bearings are new so they should not be creating any of this. (worn bearings will cause this noise.)
Another part of what I was going after was any static from the main drive belt. I do not believe this belt is any different from the tail rotor belts. Well it is a different compound, but it's doing the same work as the t/r belt so why would it not cause static?

Now, having said this when was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the drive belt causing static? I haven't so far!
I haven't seen anyone aside from you and me worry about the Rx up there between the motor and shaft gear and no one I know has had a problem that they can pinpoint to glitching caused by static hitting the Rx mounted there. Truely though, how many people can definitely pinpoint and prove it beyond the shadow of doubt.

so yep, I was the first one to say it was overkill and it is!

There is a way to get rid of the static from the plastic main gear.
I thought of it this Saturday while searching for a volt-tester.

so yep, I was the first one to say it was overkill and it is!

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

11-03-2008 06:04 PM

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Quote
Well it is a different compound, but it's doing the same work as the t/r belt so why would it not cause static?

Quote
There is a way to get rid of the static from the plastic main gear. I thought of it this Saturday while searching for a volt-tester. so yep, I was the first one to say it was overkill and it is!

Mannnnn.... go watch the video already... LOL

Quote

Now, having said this when was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the drive belt causing static? I haven't so far!
I haven't seen anyone aside from you and me worry about the Rx up there between the motor and shaft gear and no one I know has had a problem that they can pinpoint to glitching caused by static hitting the Rx mounted there. Truely though, how many people can definitely pinpoint and prove it beyond the shadow of doubt.

I can't prove it. But if you've rebuilt an MJ2 nine times in a year I think you'll probably move it too!

11-03-2008 06:49 PM

HOMEPAGE

Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

nine times....ouch, change your smilies to black cats!

no video tonight, there's a strong cloud cover between me and the satellite

murphy can prove it!

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

11-03-2008 07:13 PM

iflybyu77
Key Veteran
Location: Fort Wayne, IN

Quote
I can't prove it. But if you've rebuilt an MJ2 nine times in a year I think you'll probably move it too!

Just a thought Nooobs.. putting the rx battery near that EMF (belt/main gear) introduces the noise into your rx... Keep power sources, rx, and servo wires as far from it all as possible.

One other consideration I haven't read is that 2.4 systems may be MORE prone to static discharge as all have CPU's running the operation. Noise introduced through power sources and servos can cause all kinds of problems IMO.

EDIT: Is there any way you can reproduce that video to show if the other side of the motor plate on your MJ2 shows much static/EMF?

11-03-2008 07:25 PM

HOMEPAGE

aambrose
Elite Veteran
Location: Pana, IL

Not knowing much about electrics, but is there any way you guys can channel some of the motor heat toward your lipos to help with drops in voltage or would it even be enough to help?

Regarding static, I know nooobs says he puts his electronics (rx, HC, etc.) in a plastic box. I think that's more for quick installs in nooobs' situation

but would a plastic box introduce static or would it depend on how it's mounted?

Tony

11-03-2008 07:43 PM

trackhead
Key Veteran
Location: utah

Quote
Not knowing much about electrics, but is there any way you guys can channel some of the motor heat toward your lipos to help with drops in voltage or would it even be enough to help?

Most batteries heat up plenty during flight. They also have enough mass to stay warm in an insulated case with hand warmer packs on them.

I haven't had ANY issues flying in cold weather related to lack of power or lipo issues.

It's a non-issue with simple measures to keep the batteries warm.

11-03-2008 09:42 PM

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Quote
putting the rx battery near that EMF (belt/main gear) introduces the noise into your rx... Keep power sources, rx, and servo wires as far from it all as possible.

Thanks for the tip. The battery you're seeing is actually the RX for the camera mount. I get the heli's RX power from the main packs that's located wayyyyy at the back of the heli.

Quote
Is there any way you can reproduce that video to show if the other side of the motor plate on your MJ2 shows much static/EMF?

I'll see what I can do. Most likely since there is that big piece of metal between the belt and RX area static is probably limited. But I'll test for the static from the main gear.

Tony, not sure if you can channel heat from the motor to the packs. The downwash might be in the way. Besides, as Derek mentioned, there is little problem due to cold with huge lipos.

Previously when I used small size lipos for the RX I had to wrap them up.

RE: plastic box. I checked them during my test and there was absolutely no static where it's mounted. I can see static occuring with plastic due to friction. i.e. plastic tail blades.

11-03-2008 10:08 PM

HOMEPAGE

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Just as I figured. Static near the main gear...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZsC7_LVZFg

11-04-2008 07:16 AM

HOMEPAGE

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

Ros, i got one of these devices to, but i find them extremely sensitive, fex, if i tap both my fingers on the tip, it will blink once, what i mean is, how much static is needed to get this device to react, and how much static is to much for our radio systems.
I mean, in your last video, the interference stops just a centimetre of the wall to the right, so it cant be that strong, agree?

I believe our radio systems are resistant to static interference up to a certain point, but how do we know how much to much is, is there a digital device for measuring static as well?
I mean, its only on or of with these pens, or?

They are originally made to locate power cables inside walls and stuff, right?

Would be interesting to know how resistant the radio systems REALLY are, and where the limit is.
I guess theres also a difference between 35/72 hz and the 2.4 ghz system, how they react to different signals.

My conclusion (despite all your building experience with MJ

) is that it would be reports of more people hitting the ground if this REALLY was a problem, with the rx in that tray, or could some helis produce more static all in all than other for some reasons?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

11-04-2008 09:24 AM

HOMEPAGE

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Hey man, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just sharing my findings. After what I've been through can you blame me? LMAO

I'm not an electrician. Don't know how much is too much. I'm sure there is a measuring device or some sort of meter. Even if it was ok. Even if it was 100% fool proof I'd still move it. To me static is static. Keep away!

Ever been to an electronic manufacturing company? See those white things they wear? ESD smocks? ESD floors? ESD straps? ESD table mats? ...on and on and on...

If you think you're setup is good then let it be. Don't fix what's not broken.

Mine just happened to do it a couple of times... DOH!

I know what you're trying to avoid... HEHEHE ...I know it's bugging you...

11-04-2008 10:04 AM

HOMEPAGE

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

Hehe, yea yea, of course im trying to avoid extra work (like i dont have enough already

)

But, this is actually an interesting topic, and could be valuable for all of us, getting to the bottom of this, we should dig more, maybe even down to the asians and where they manufacture these incredible radio systems...
*dig-dig-dig-dig*

By the way, when are you going to start selling the NoobsBlackRos boxes?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

11-04-2008 12:47 PM

HOMEPAGE

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

You know... you're probably right... there is probably nothing to worry about. There, happy? Now you don't have to do it! LOL

...maybe start by unplugging one wire..? the rest will follow...

Blackbox? Send me an extra-large black coffee and I'll make you one. Yum!

11-04-2008 12:56 PM

HOMEPAGE

Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

I think the static discharge is about .300mA, but please do not quote me on that. The voltage is another thing, anywhere from 100v up to 25,000v+ as you walk across a carpet, that you can quote me on or you can read it for yourself at
http://www.esda.org/basics/part1.cfm
The website is from the "Electrostatic Discharge Association"
nooobs, they have a paragraph "Latency Failures" about the failures of electronics due to repeated exposure to static discharge.

Anyway, I did get the chance to watch nooobs video and thinking about why the grounding is not working on the main drive belt vs. working on the tail rotor belt.
The best I can come up with is that the T/R belt is enclosed by the boom and is discharging into the boom because of it's close proximity and then being conducted into the airframe by the grounding wire.
On the main drive belt there is nothing close to it, only open air. So as the belt builds up it's charge it discharges anywhere along it's length and not always at the pinion and main gear where I thought it would be conducted away into the metal frame and into the grounding wire.

So my thoughts would be a conductive shield around the drive belt that you could ground like you ground the tail boom.
Is it worth the trouble? That depends on how badly you really want to get rid of it.

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

11-06-2008 10:44 PM

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Steve I don't think a conductive shield is necessary unless you are protecting an electronic device. As you can see from the video what a simple foil can do.

Yes static is discharged into the air but only up to a certain distance as you can see how close the voltage detector has to be.

On my older Trex I had the HC right near the main gear and I tested the area for static discharge. Sure enough it was close. All I had to do was block that area with a piece of foil. No more worries.

Quote
they have a paragraph "Latency Failures" about the failures of electronics due to repeated exposure to static discharge.

I have heard of that a couple of years ago when I worked at a plant. I forgot to mention what I did when I purchased the 2.4 RX. At the store I tested the RX unit for static interference. I placed the RX right beside the main gear and did a range test while the heli spun. I walked across the street (200ft) and there was no problem. But then I thought about the constant static discharge the RX is taking. So I thought that can't be good... LOL ...then came the blackbox.

11-06-2008 11:07 PM

HOMEPAGE

Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

Quote
I don't think a conductive shield is necessary unless you are protecting an electronic device.

Lol...I'm not mounting anything it that area!

:

see my whitebox

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

11-06-2008 11:14 PM

Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

Regarding the radio mitts for cold weather, since they are selling them is there is a problem with the antenna inside the mitt or do they have a hole for the antenna to exit? (2.4 vs 72)
I just picked up the Futaba 10C Tx and the 2.4 antenna is coming off the bottom of the Tx below the carrying handle. The options are to point it straight down from the case. It's downright ugly!
I think I would have to cut a hole in the mitt for it just to have room to fit the Tx inside? anyone have any inputs on this?

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

11-07-2008 03:33 AM

nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

The radio mitts do come with plastic gromets for you to install once you cut the holes.

Quote
It's downright ugly!

I don't think anyone is going to care when you're out in the cold.

11-07-2008 03:42 AM

HOMEPAGE

Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

-find a coat that has inside pockets for you batteries or maybe use a photo vest inside your coat to hold them so they stay warm.
-number your batteries so you know, though it should be easy to tell the difference between hot and cold batteries

, but not so easy with Rx or Tx batteries.
-you can get heat shrink with a sealent inside it so when you shrink it it becomes a waterproof seal, on this page listed as "adhesive lined" from ANCOR:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...dkey=SiteSearch
btw, it is not that hard to cut apart like regular heat shrink if you have to change your setup.
-or you can use the accessory nozzle that comes with tubes of silicone and cut it off at the smallest tip size and inject that into both ends of a heat shrink before you shrink it and this will seal it as well. it is messy, adhesive lined is cleaner.
-sunglasses that wrap around your eyes to keep out the wind.

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

11-09-2008 11:12 AM

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