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Scale Model RC Helicopters > Cracks in Fiberglass....
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ - USA

I'm looking for some guidance on how or if some cracks can be effectively repaired and then reinforced in a Hirobo EC120B where the tail boom transitions into the Fenestron housing. There are cracks on both sides. The rest of the fuselage is immaculate with the exception of these two offenders =\

I'd hate to junk this fuselage over something like this. I also have a EC135 woth the same problem, but the cracks are from just aft of the horizontal fin cut out extending out from its aft top corners =\

- Dan G. -
10-10-2008 12:02 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
marc28
Senior Heliman
Location: new york

post some pics,i'm sure it can be easily repaired
10-10-2008 12:09 AM
 
 
flybarless
Key Veteran
Location: Torrington, CT

light glass cloth and EPOXY, add layers as needed, sand, fill, repaint. If you can add layers inside, all the better.

Just remember -- if the world didn't suck, we would fall off.
10-10-2008 05:28 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Pretty easy fix, and like flybarless said, the key is to use epoxy resin and not cheap polyester resin. West Systems makes some excellent epoxy resin http://www.westsystem.com/ not cheap, but won't crack under vibration like a cheapo polyester resin.

Chris
Xero G

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo
10-10-2008 05:40 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
PETER ROB
Key Veteran
Location: Devon UK

Cracks in Fiberglass....

Dan G., If the cracks are very fine, then it will not matter what you do, they will always show after the repair
Using a Dremmel disc, put a cut down the centre of the crack, this will give you a 1mm gap (approx) between the 2 sides of the original crack
Now follow the advice of the others and make the repair with Epoxy,
Finish the repair outside with fine car body filler, and sand down using a fine wet and dry paper 320/500 grit
To get to the inside of a repair cut a hole on the underside of the model big enough to work through, Make the repair, with epoxy and fine mat
Try not to use the quick set epoxy, the longer it takes to cure,(24 hours) the stronger the repair
Make the hole you cut, look like an accesss hatch with rivits all around and nobody but you will be the wiser
RappyTappy,Chris, the polyester is not crappy, it just does not stick to epoxy, if the fuse is made of polyester then it will work fine, but if you use epoxy it will work everytime
Good luck
Peter R
10-10-2008 08:18 AM
 
 
antja
Senior Heliman
Location: raumati beach new zealand

if the fuse is polyester then you need to repair with polyester or
vinylester resin.

Tony.
10-10-2008 10:29 AM
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ - USA

the fuse is originally made by Funkey. I'm not sure what kind of resin they use. This crack is basically the same on the opposite side of the fuse:



- Dan G. -
10-10-2008 06:43 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
flybarless
Key Veteran
Location: Torrington, CT

I would use a few layers of EPOXY and light glass cloth from the inside, on the outside a mix of epoxy and micro balloons(filler) to make a paste that will fill the crack on the outside.

Polyester resins are picky after initial layup, epoxy will stick well to either type after initial lay up.

The glass cloth layers should get progresivly larger for each layer to help spread the stresses.

Just remember -- if the world didn't suck, we would fall off.
10-10-2008 07:41 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

+1 what flybarless said. This is a very minor repair and don't scrap the whole fuse for this.

Chris
Xero G

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo
10-10-2008 07:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ - USA

what weight cloth should I use? Would using any mat be stronger?

Once this crack is filled/repaired I'd really like to try and reinforce this whole area where the tail boom transitions from where the horizontal stab is back to the fenestron housing - this area sees a lot of stress in flight and is obviously prone to cracks.

- Dan G. -
10-10-2008 08:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
antja
Senior Heliman
Location: raumati beach new zealand

epoxy does not stick well to polyester at all find out what it is first its to late after .

Tony.
10-10-2008 08:54 PM
 
 
monkey nuts
Senior Heliman
Location: chester england

i always thought that polyester resin wasnt used for fuselages because it has no flexibility. polyestor dries hard were epoxy resin dries flexible, is that right?
10-10-2008 09:05 PM
 
 
RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Quote 
epoxy does not stick well to polyester at all find out what it is first its to late after .

Where did you hear that? Epoxy sticks well to either dried epoxy or polyester resins.

Also my knowledge and experience with polyester resins is that they can devlop cracks from vibration whereas epoxy is much more durable, espcially consider how much vibration a heli has going on.

Go into any boat fiberglass shop and they will tell you, if you want a permanent best fix, epoxy is bar none the way to go, it bonds molecuraly to the structure whereas polyester just does not.

This is not a mystery, searches on the web and or visits to a fiberglass specialist will all advise to use epoxy for strength, longevity and vibration resistance. There is a reason it cost more because it is just plain better to use. If you don't intend on having a fuse for a while or don't mind the stress cracks from normal use, then you can use polyester.

Chris
Xero G

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo
10-10-2008 09:35 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
flybarless
Key Veteran
Location: Torrington, CT

1/2 once cloth would be good, start the first layer about 1/2" wider than the crack, and add 1/2" per layer, 4 layers will be plenty.
Use the same cloth to reinforce, 2 layers should be good.
Clean really good with alcohol and if you can scuff it a little with 150 grit, all the better.
RappyTappy has it right about the resins, also, the longer the dry time the better 1/2hr min, for boat lay ups and repairs, we go 4 hours plus. The shorter the dry time the more brittle the finished product.

Just remember -- if the world didn't suck, we would fall off.
10-10-2008 10:25 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ - USA

I'm thinking that since this crack also appears on the other side that i might just layer in long strips that go from one side on down-around and up to the other side and just keep building on this to repair the cracks and simultaneously reinforce this area.

- Dan G. -
10-10-2008 10:40 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
antja
Senior Heliman
Location: raumati beach new zealand

polyester is perfectly alright for fuse,s why do think they make most boats out of polyester .
If you are getting enough vibration to crack a polyester fuse you should
look at getting your engine and mechanics balanced to remove the vibrations.

Tony.
10-11-2008 12:29 AM
 
 
antja
Senior Heliman
Location: raumati beach new zealand

1/2 oz 15g cloth is tissue cloth no strength at all minimum to use on those cracks is 100g.

Tony.
10-11-2008 12:35 AM
 
 
RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

quoted from rcsailing.net

Quote 
Once upon a time, polyester resin was thought to be waterproof. Ask any of the thousands & thousands of boat owners that have a bottom damaged by osmotic blisters & they’ll tell you it’s not . Now you’re probably not going to get blisters on your toy boat unless you’re some incredible die-hard in need of an intervention, but using a quality goo never hurts. There are five main resin chemistries commonly used in boat building. The oldest & most often used (in full sized boat production) is orthophthalic polyester resin, it’s the cheapest, easy to use, brittle, has a fairly low tensile strength & hurts your mouth to pronounce. Next in line is isophthalic polyester resin, it has much better mechanical properties than ortho resin, greater tensile strength, over twice the elongation spec, superior secondary bonds and better chemical/osmosis resistance. A third resin is known as DCPD which stands for poly dicyclopentadiene (a word not commonly used is everyday conversation). It has a lower styrene content than iso or ortho resin which helps manufacturers meet strict EPA styrene emission levels. A side benefit of less styrene in the mix is less shrinkage during cure (there’s less styrene to evaporate so the goo shrinks less). Since it shrinks less it’s often used to lay-up the first layer of glass to minimize “print through” of the glass weave into the gelcoat. It’s also has better resistance to osmosis than ortho/ios resins & serves as a sort of half-assed osmotic blister protection. Pure DCPD resin is too brittle for boatbuilding so it is blended with either ortho, iso or vinylester. Vinylester resin is the fourth choice & is handled much the same as polyester resin. It is a much superior goo to polyester as far as fatigue, impact resistance, adherence and osmosis resistance. The absolute KING is EPOXY. It is superior in all properties except price. The price aspect is actually very trivial considering the wee amounts of goo used in a toy boat. Even in a full sized boat the extra cost for epoxy resin versus polyester is a very small percentage of the total cost of the boat. If you want to build the best, use the best. Epoxy resin is not that much more expensive than polyester resin. A gallon of poly is about $28USD, a gallon of 1:1 laminating epoxy is $39USD. Those of you that are using West System products are probably thinking that I have some form of head injury because you paid somewhere around $100USD for a gallon of goo. They might as well change the name to “The Goudging Brothers”. Don’t get me wrong, West System products are very good, they’re just way overpriced. If you would like to not take out a second mortgage for epoxy, give Fiberglass Coatings Inc. a try. <<www.fgci.com>;> The finest laminating epoxy that they sell for boatbuilding purposes is the 3:1 ratio goo. It is a very high quality product. FGCI has a resident chemist, you can actually talk to him. They make all manner of magical coating goo. The latest epoxy goo chemistry that FGCI is using is DOT non-corrosive so you shouldn’t have to pay for hazardous shipping. I rarely use anything except the 3:1 blend, it’s near $50 per gallon. The 1:1 & 2:1 blends are a little bit cheaper but they don’t have anywhere near the resistance to water absorption. The 3:1 blend is also very chemically resistant. I use this to coat the inside surfaces of metal fuel tanks (after etching them with acid). You’ve got a pretty nice looking hull there, with obviously a fair amount of work involved. Don’t be tempted to save a few bucks by using an inferior goo. If your intent is to finish the hull bright (just a clear coat) you might look into the “Table Top Crystal Clear UV Epoxy” that FGCI offers. I’ve never actually used it so I’m not sure just how suitable it would be for a marine environment. The “UV” part of the name piqued my interest. Normally, epoxy is poor against UV exposure (one of it’s few weaknesses) so it should always be covered with paint or varnish. I feel as though I’ve been rambling, I hope some of this helps.

Note the key concept, polyester resin used because of cost mostly while epoxy is king. Don't really feel like repeating myself. Polyester resin can be used, but spend the extra and get some quality epoxy resin and enjoy the durable results a lot longer.

Chris
Xero G

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo
10-11-2008 12:39 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
antja
Senior Heliman
Location: raumati beach new zealand

I am not saying Epoxy is not better just that there is nothing wrong with using polyester for fuse,s after all we are not immersing them in water are we I am well aware that polyester is not waterproof it,s the gelcoat that keeps the water out I may not be the expert that you are but I have been using resins for a number of years and am well aware of most of there properties. If darkfa8 wants to use Epoxylet him
go to it hopfully it will be compatible.

Tony
10-11-2008 12:49 AM
 
 
ESWLFSE
Elite Veteran
Location: Bradenton, FL USA

Sand the inside for adhesion only (no unecessary material removal) prior to reinforcing the layup as decribed by others here and with epoxy and light cloth, and allow to fully cure. Reinforce any other similar areas while you are in there. Then grind and feather out the entire crack on the outside and add epoxy-glass from that side also restoring to the original surface level.

Don't use a polyester filler/glaze over any epoxy repair. Make an epoxy filler with resin and microballoons or go straight to primer and fill over that if any pinholes exist in your repair.
10-11-2008 01:30 AM
 
 
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Scale Model RC Helicopters > Cracks in Fiberglass....
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