rrTV-PHOTO   New HD TV
HOME   rrTV-PHOTO   GALLERIES   MY GALLERY   HELP-FAQ
myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 656 ONLINE 38 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER  START HERE
 
1 page1793 viewsPOST REPLY
Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies

.
.
Main Discussion > A must see for Raptor owners !!!
 
 
mariog7
Heliman
Location: New York

Clutch Problems - A must see for Raptor owners !!!

http://www.heliproz.com/Rapclutch.html
02-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
helinut
Senior Heliman
Location: Snohomish, WA

If someone wants one of the spacers send me your address and I will mail it to free of charge. I no longer have a Raptor.
02-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Scotty740
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashport, Ohio

I think that TT now includes a shim like that in the new Raptor kits from what I have been told. I think .030" is a bit much. On both my Raptors I just filed down the hub where the shoes rub. It only takes a few swipes on each side. Just be sure and check balance when done. Haven't broken a stock clutch yet in 2 years on the machines.
02-17-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rc_heli_flier
Senior Heliman
Location: Cumberland, Md. U.S.A.

Yes, the new Raptor 30 kits do come with one of those shims. I purchased my kit from Heliproz in late November. The one in the kit is only about as half as thick as the one heliproz sells - I purchased one of their's not knowing there was one in the kit. I have about 18 flights on mine so far - is the shim working? - well, I suppose it is. The clutch has been ok so far. I also bought one of the one piece tail rotor hubs and one of the cooling shroud extensions, since I had heard these were a good idea as well.
02-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
jrice45516
Heliman
Location: SoCal

I hate to rain on your parade but...

...the shim does not solve the problem of premature clutch failure. In fact it can make matters worse.

TT's response to the clutch breakage problem by providing the shim is admirable. In my neighborhood, however, where the R30 is by far the predominant heli, we have seen premature clutch failure both with & without the shim. And when I say "premature," I mean in as few as 2 or 3 hovering flights on a brand new clutch, shimmed or not. Invariably, clutcharms break at, or cracks start at, the holes where the wall thickness is thinnest. And they start from the fanhub-side of the clutch.

It is true that, without the shim, the rubbing of the clutcharms on the fan hub due to in/out movement of the arm can be seen as demarcations on the hub. Premature cracking & eventual breakage, however, is not due to in/out movement of the arm.

Rather, the premature cracking is caused by the arm flexing up & down and this is why the shim can only make matters worse. Without the shim, at least when the arm tries to flex toward the hub, it runs up against the hub and can go no further. This is why the cracks start on the hub-side of the clutch. [The only time I have seen a crack start from the opposite side was when I was running a shim & pancaked my R20 hard into the ground; the impact bent the arm down toward the hub.] With the shim, however, the arm is allowed to flex even further in the direction of the hub, which only accelerates cracking & eventual breakage.

Why do clutcharms flex up/down? This is due to misalignment between the engine crankshaft & the startshaft assembly. The small bearing in the clutchbell also takes alot of punishment due to this misalignment. It is hit or miss whether you will have a problematic amount of misalignment in any given bird or after any given rebuild of your bird. That is why some pilots experience premature clutch failure & others don't.

The following is what I am doing to check & correct misalignment. It seems to be increasing clutch lifetime. I know it's a hassle but have found no other way.

I assemble the engine without fan (crankshaft is bare), engine mount, mainshaft & startshaft bearings, & sideframes. The startshaft assembly is left out. I then slip a straight tube (with I.D. as close to crankshaft O.D. as I can find) down through the startshaft bearings onto the crankshaft. [Another way is to add in the fan & clutch; then just lower a longreach 6mm drill bit down into the clutch bearing instead of slipping a tube over the crankshaft.] With the glowplug & engine backplate removed (I told you it was a hassle), I can turn the engine over with my finger while watching the clearance between the tubing and the top startshaft bearing's inner race. The tube or drillbit is not a perfect fit & so it wobbles a bit as I turn the engine but that's OK. I'm just looking for the smallest clearance between the leaning tube & the bearing race to remain the constant as the engine rotates. Of course, if there is misalignment, it will not stay the same. The size & direction misalignment will vary depending on what combination of parts you are using. Now, to try to minimize the misalignment, I loosen the engine in its mount & put shim stock between the engine & the mount until I get the best alignment I can. You can order stainless steel shim stock in sheets from SmallParts.com.

Many will say that misalignment starts with runnout of the fan on the crankshaft & will recommend going to a metal fan. I have tried that with 2 different brands of aftermarket metal fans, one from Ron Lund & one from HeliProz, & found that the stock plastic fan has far less runnout than either. When those metal fan thread onto the crank, whatever runnout exists is unchangeable becaused the threaded hole is not aligned. Tapered collets do absolutely nothing to change this. A metal fan with less than 0.5thousandths runnout at the hub would be nice, but this can only be accomplished if the fan is machined while on a crankshaft & probably while on the actual crank with which it will be used.

I tried flying the metal fan from HeliProz, disregarding the horrible runnout at the hub of ~3thou. The rigidly unforgiving out-of-true fan caused the lower startshaft bearing to spin in its sideframe bearing seat & the heat of friction melted the seat area. Can you say "frustrating"? Those sideframes were brand spanking new. ;-) Threw them away & permanently retired the useless metal fans. Hey, R&D has its price. The moral of that little story is NEVER use a metal fan whose runnout is not as good as the runnout of the crankshaft.

By the way, for all of the above, I am running the upgrade aluminum sideframe joiners & carbon fiber sideframe stiffener. This significantly stiffins up the airframe & no doubt makes the plastic sideframe bearing block areas even less forgiving of misalignment. A word of advice to any who install the metal joiners; be sure to use plenty of thread release on the bolts. Permatex makes some they call "anti-seize lubricant"; try an autoparts store.

If you are not having, or have not had, premature clutch failure, you are fortunate. Enjoy!
02-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

I don't know about that, but I have never had a stock clutch break. I have worn them out and have worn out the clutch liner but thats it. The only thing non-stock about that assembly is that now I use a JR clutch liner to extend the life of the liner.

http://www.heliproz.com/flymarks.jpg
This picture from their website says a lot. The problems that I have seen from R30 pilots are a result of metal fatigue from moving in and out over a much greater distance than needed. Sure the fatigue will still happen but if you force the arms to travel in and out a great deal then of course you greatly decrease its life. It is also true that rubbing against the sides of anything is going to shorten its life due to fatigue. The clutch shim is important because that contact is a serious design flaw. I don't really buy the argument that they flex up and down much because of centrifugal forces involved. The sign that this was happening would need to include much wear on the clutch liner of this same pattern. The wear on the clutch liner would be a greater factor than its force on the clutch itself. Misalignment could very well be an issue and that pulling on the clutch in any direction is certainly a bad thing but I would be very worried about letting the clutch rub anything and would insist that the shim was in place. Then I would worry about that gap. Then maybe the allignment but I throw my engine in without much thinking and have never had an issue. You can wiggle that thing enough to realize keeping a tight tolerance on any aspect of that assembly would be a waste of your time. I've worn out a few TT parts and cursed them for it but with except for the swash, links, and a snazy servo mount, and a Jr liner, I'm stock.
02-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
mariog7
Heliman
Location: New York

Did anyone try using a different brand clutch shoe, like the Kalt showed on Heliproz website?
02-18-2002 Over year old.
 
 
winger
Senior Heliman
Location: Indiana

Aftermarket clutch

I bought a clutch shoe similar to the Kalt from Rick's. I installed a Concept 60 clutch liner also. I've had no failures since.

My stock clutch failed after 3 tanks hovering, using the shim.

Regards,
Winger
02-18-2002 Over year old.
 
 
KeyserSoze
Heliman
Location: Nashville TN

I'm curious too about the raptor clutch problem. I went through quite a few clutches with my own raptor 30. I couldnt seem to figure it out.
There are alot of "garanteed" fixes for this problem, but from what I'm reading, they don't really work. I saw the heliproz article on the clutch shim idea, it seems like a good idea, but if people are breaking clutches, put a shim in, and continue to break clutches, I'd say it doesn't work. Since the clutches seem to break on an intermittant basis, a lot of people have said that thier particular fix works, because it was the last thing they tried before installing the clutch that they are currently using, and it has lasted for a while. The clutch gap idea seems like it makes sense because on most helis that I have owned thats the cause of clutch breakages, and in the case of the concept 60 they came out with a new clutch bell with a thicker wall to reduce the clutch to liner clearance, but alot of poeple have tried to adjust the gap with everything from business cards to peices of tin cans, and still have clutch failures. Some even started out with extra material in their bells and turned the liners down on lathes, to get precise clearance measurements, and still break clutches. People have used aftermarket heavy duty clutches that broke prematurely also. The alignment problem seems valid as well, but people have tried numerous fans, and clutches to get cluthes with very little runout, and still had breakages. I read something interesting at http://www.raptortechnique.com/clutchrepair.htm. mentioning that there could be a loose beraing block in the frames causing the cluch bell to wobble under load, causing the clutch arms when connected to a wobbling bell to flex up and down and fatigue and crack. What I'm wondering is, does anyone have any practical information on this theory. Has anyone had clutch breakages, crashed put new frames on and had thier clutch failures go away. I'm very curious.


Michael
02-19-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

"does anyone have any practical information on this theory"

Thats what jrice45516 and I were talking about. My thinking is that such a problem would also show as a great amount of wear on the liner. If this thing is flexing up and down then it is rubbing the liner as it does it. I think there are a combination of things that can cause a clutch failure. Thats a pretty safe answer but true. We are all trying to talk about this over the net and via websites and so its hard to judge the craftsmanship involved. Mine is fairly stock, I built it as the instructions said. I also read the tips on the Fritz the Cat site. Other than normal wear and abuse, the parts are reliable. To me, the gap seems to be the major factor. I use one wrap of electrical tape with the liner glued in with JB weld. I also use the shim and think it is very important. Along the same lines, I also ensure that bell is not pushed against the top of the clutch. My fan, clutch, and clutch bell is stock. I changed liner because I wanted it to last longer. I replaced the liner and clutch but they wore down, they did not break. I don't mike the shafts or indicate anything. Believe me, I have the equipment to do it. But its a plastic 30 size machine. Jerk around the engine, clutch, and bell and you can see that trying to keep it within microns would be a gross waste of your time. Without looking at the machine that failed, its just too hard to say what the problem(s) is. My theory is that it is the operator. Ah crap were did I put my flame suit! But really, most of my problems are operator related .
02-19-2002 Over year old.
 
 
KeyserSoze
Heliman
Location: Nashville TN

Yeah,

I had two raptor 30's with OS 32's for over a year with only one clutch failure and that was due to planting my heli at a moderate speed. I use the one wrap of electrical tape and JB weld as well. Then on one of my Raptors, I started having failure after failure. I went through 4 in one month. I tried differnt liners (I had a concept 60 so I had a spare liner) Used the TT liner with paper behind it. i double and tripple checked my engine alignment. I had clutches last anywhere from A few weeks, to going throught 2 clutches in one day (I kept spares). The shims don't seem to work to me, because it made no difference at all when I added my shim. Several others have put a shim on and found absolutly no difference. What makes me put credence in the bearing block theory is that I sold my raptor 30, and included a couple extra clutches with it. Well the guy that bought it was just learning 3D, and he crashed it right away. He bought a new set of frames, and hasn't had any problems.


Michael
02-20-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

Badly molded frames would be something to consider. And I know full well that after I said I don't have clutch problems that it will most likely break my very next flight. But thats part of the hobby, scratching your head and wondering "what the hell?"
02-20-2002 Over year old.
 
 
2000se
Senior Heliman
Location: Charlotte, NC

well.....

the dang thing is ..is that it makes me want to just get a different type of heli.....dag gone thing..
02-20-2002 Over year old.
 
 
KCorning
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Lower Michigan

Badly Molded Frames?

Greetings,
I just purchased a new Raptor 30 kit over the weekend. This will be my first Raptor. I've been following all the threads regarding clutches (and other problems). I've heard from those much wiser than me that there is a mold flaw in the right frame where the engine mount sits. I looked at my new kit when I got it home and sure enough where the corner is square on the left side it is rounded on the right side, thus preventing the engine mount from being fully seated in the frame. Is this what you were referring to SemiArticulate? Anyone else have comments on this? Thanks.

-Kevin
02-20-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

No, thats a new one to me. Everything I said was assuming there were no defects. Can you post a pic of what you are talking about. I'm no expert on these things, but Dremel is usually a pretty good answer? If I got a defective frame I would expect TT to replace it. I've had good luck with mine and it has taken me pretty far. My engine just pops right in. I did replace the links with Rocket City, the ace metal swash came with mine but it now has a little slop, the clutch liner is JR but you should expect about 4 boxes of fuel before you start to detect the stock one degrade. For me, a hot start early on probably helped create that problem. I wore grooves into the mainshaft which was replaced at about 6 boxes of fuel (Four gallons to a box). You can prevent that to some extent but I just figured I'd crash before then. I switched to the one piece tail rotor hub after the aluminum threads started to fail. I think that was after three boxes. What keeps that heli in the air is constant attention and a liberal replacement policy. Thats true of all of them. I took for granted that my Freya was better quality and thus did not need as much attention. The result was that it fell out of the sky due to something I should have found in a preflight. Its still alive and kicking. I am looking at a sceadu 50 over the R50 but thats because the upgrades I want are already on the sceadu 50.
02-20-2002 Over year old.
 
 
KCorning
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Lower Michigan

Scans of Raptor 30 frames

Here's the scans of the motor mount area on the left and right frames. The left shows a square corner as expected. The right shows a little fillet in the corner (see circle). No, it's not a shadow, but actual frame material there.






Well, I just grabbed the motor mount and it's rounded in the corners enough where the fillet may not make a difference, after all. Oh well. I'll be taking extra care to put mine together, either way.

-Kevin
02-21-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

Thanks, I never noticed that on mine. I guess as long as you know it is a problem it is an easy fix. I'll check next time I have my frames apart. Thanks for the pics.
02-21-2002 Over year old.
 
 
1 page1793 viewsPOST REPLY
HeliHobby . Ron’s HeliProz South . Century Helicopter

.
.
Main Discussion > A must see for Raptor owners !!!
  UPDATE SCREEN   PRINT TOPIC Advertisers 

Subscribe to This Topic

Sunday, September 7 - 4:22 pm - Copyright © 2000 - 2008 runryder.com | email | link to rr | runryder needs cookie