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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Predator gear ratio.
 
 
jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

thanks for the helpful numbers! But I thought the top end of the stock 231 rpm range was 11,000 rpm? How high can you reliably spin the stock 231? I want to be able to 3d it for the most part.

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10-04-2008 03:09 AM
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litespeed600
Veteran
Location: St. Charles, Missouri

Quote 
But I thought the top end of the stock 231 rpm range was 11,000 rpm?

That is a great question since I have read countless threads using 12,500 rpm as a target number but I seen on the Horizon site they use 3k to 11k rpm range. I know with a pipe you can increase rpm range or tuning so that may extend it some but I guess I have to say I really don't know.

Hopefully one of the "elders" will shed light on the rpm range of a stock 231.

I have a tiny tach I could hook up to mine once it's flyable again. I'm not sure if the GV-1 tells rpm of the engine or not since I haven't figured it out yet.

Tom

I'm married so you know I am no stranger to pain!
10-04-2008 03:31 AM
 
 
AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

GEARING

7.67 and 8.36 are specific for the Condor swinging those LONG sticks around.. from 810-830mm, and note that RPM on the head inceases the force exerted on the grips in a BIG way.... if you didn't have a full metal head and grip setup, those 810's should be kept down around 1400 or so... I have the metal head on my Connie and I have run it as much as 1650 but I DO NOT suggest this to the general public. I seem to remember engineering telling me that 1550 on the full metal head was the intended limit...
That said, I think the "best" 3D gearing I had on my P-gasser was the 6.9, as the engine wasn't quite trying to bust out of the frames and could recover back to 2,000 RPM faster after a 300 rpm decay than the 7.07 does. Remember, we are using TORQUE to turn the blades, unlike the glow guys that are using HORSEPOWER at high RPM.
I should add to my statemet about the 6.9 ratio and higher. The tuning on the engine is more critical and less forgiving at these higher ratios, as the machine has a harder time communicating to the tuner what it needs.

6.76 is about as high a ratio as I recommend. 6.43 works well too. We spent ALOT of time (just ask Billme) working the ratio's and finding what we thought would work for the majority of owners. The 5.8 was NOT right, and we quickly got that changed. I had the 6.43 included in the SE version of the gasser, and it worked well. 6.57 is OK too... the beauty of this series is found in the gear ratio combinations you can play with.

Yes, for those that just HAVE to know... I HAVE run 8.48 on 720's and let the engine rev as high as it physically could. never got a tach on it, but I promise you couldn't slow the head down with 13 degrees positive pitch !

GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0
10-04-2008 03:36 AM
 
 
jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

Right, I have also read rpm 's up to 12500 on it, so I am just curious. I am thinking more along the lines as moderate until I get the feel for the gasser. I am thinking 1750 idle and 1850 on idle 1 and 2 for now.

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10-04-2008 03:38 AM
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jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

Quote 
6.76 is about as high a ratio as I recommend. 6.43 works well too
this is good to know as I am going to go with the 6.43. Yes I have read all your posts about the ratios... some good info! Thanks for sharing once again

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10-04-2008 03:41 AM
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AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

MAX rpm

The tech data on Horizons' webpage are numbers that are based on the G23 series of engines. They just copied them for the 231.

For you "gotta spin them till they are dizzy" folks.....

7.07 gears, 2,200 headspeed = FIFTEEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED engine RPM. Yes, this is a STOCK 231. AGAIN, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME....it was under VERY controlled conditions and with razor sharp tuning. The engine sheds RPM very fast, as there is little torque to sustain it when a max load is put on it (such as a drag race) but it DOES BUST ASS off the line.

I personally think around 13-13500 is about all you really want to spin it at for extended reliability and recovery of RPM at the head after decay. Yes, I know I am a LITTLE over 14,000 at 7.07 and 2,000 headspeed. Hence you see my suggested ratio's for 3D guys at 6.76 which gives you 13,500 engine RPM.

No doubt, the "Al Gang" can get higher RPM from their modified engines, but we're not talking modified.

Also note, this using a Century Torpedo. With the box muffler or a vario (minature) behind the engine can type muffler this isn't going to be realistic.

Any other questions, class?

GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0
10-04-2008 03:49 AM
 
 
jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

I have a tuned pipe but not real keen on how loud they are. I will try the stock square muffler for now and keep my eye out for a v2 or v3. How much rpm loss cab be expected with the square muffler?

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10-04-2008 04:13 AM
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AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

stock "box"

your NOT going to get mucho power and it will not give up the high rpm performance. I know that the tuned pipes can be loud, but note that (at least with the torpedo mufflers) the carb roar is louder than the exhaust note when under full power loads. Surprising, isn't it?

GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0
10-04-2008 04:55 AM
 
 
asong26
Veteran
Location: VA

Great advice James.

Andrew
10-04-2008 06:50 AM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
The Hanson-26 handles my tic-toc's but it was bogging and having to really hunker down to pull through them after 3-4.

Why is this so hard to understand? You don't get more horsepower by running at a higher or lower headspeed. If it is going to bog in 3-4 under sustain loading it is going to bog in 3-4 no matter what. You have to return the energy to the flywheel system (rotors)and that takes time. In otherwords collective management.

Ace
What could be more fun?
10-04-2008 02:42 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

My point is I am going to change my gear ratio to suite my style of flying. raise the gear ratio and it'll bog less, recover faster. Yes, better collective timing on the tic-toc's and it won't bog and I have been able to sustain good tic-toc's. I know when I am hitting it right. The gear ratio is for when I don't hit it exactly right.

...yep...
10-04-2008 03:01 PM
 
 
jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

Quote 
The gear ratio is for when I don't hit it exactly right.
What is your setup? Ratio, blades, muffler, etc.

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10-04-2008 03:56 PM
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litespeed600
Veteran
Location: St. Charles, Missouri

Great info.

I'm married so you know I am no stranger to pain!
10-04-2008 04:16 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

Predator gasser SE carbon with the Century spec Hanson Zenoah-26PUH and the V3 muffler.

I was running the stock 6.28 gears and a headspeed of about 1900 this summer. Blades are RotorTech 710-3D SG'd. I also had a set of the RT 720-FAI SG's but they broke when I punched it in.

For this next go 'round I bought a set of Vblade 710's to comapre to my RT-710's. I expect the V's to be more like my RT-720-FAI blades as they are a bit heavier.

I'm also going to try the Velocity stack and maybe try a tuned pipe.

...yep...
10-04-2008 04:25 PM
 
 
jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

Nice, thanks I am just seeing what other guys are running, after reading about pipes and such, maybe I will try the tuned pipe I have, I just dont like the loud noise of it. I would rather hear the 710's cutting through the air,

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10-04-2008 05:23 PM
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Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

hmm

Normally I agree, but "this your NOT going to get mucho power and it will not give up the high rpm performance"

I have to disagree. James tell me what pitch and rpm you are pulling with a stock box on your pred with what blades? 2k rpm sure, but what pitch? I agree with the statement on torque, but if your porting on the engine and pipe are set up to match each other like mine this will for sure produce hands down more power. This is torque and HP. At 12.2k a little more at 13k a lot more.

My tuned pipe is not the really poppy annoying version. Its much smoother. Its the older larger Diameter one from hanson.




-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
10-04-2008 06:46 PM
 
 
jetfixrguy
Veteran
Location: Valparaiso, Indiana USA

the tuned pipe I have is 2 1/4" at the largest diameter.

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10-04-2008 11:16 PM
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oldfart
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Personally, unless I have a graph that can show me the HP curve of the engine/fuel/muffler (EFM) combination along with the torque curve of the same EFM, it is all a bit speculative.

Also I have yet to find any EFM combination, on any engine that occurs at the same RPM. With the max torque usually occuring at a lower rpm then the MAX HP.

For max acceleration in and out of maneuvers, I will always try to keep my engine's rpm somewhere between the peak torque and peak hp rpm of my EFM, but closer to that of its' peak torque rpm....keeping in mind that the kinetic energy in the rotor can, and should be, used as part of the equation. So the choice of gearing becomes relatively important here.

Just as the type of laoding (driving/flying), weight of the vehicle and the size of its's tires are a big consideration in gearing of any vehicle - so should they be important considerations here.

Also consider our ability to match our throttle (relative power) to the pitch (relative loads) with our radios. This can consider a type of transmission - one that is constantly changing gears for us. Just drive one of the new cars that have these type of trannies and see what I mean. They sound weird because they stay at the same rpm as they accelerate to max.

Of course, as in anything that is power (rpm) to load related, once one loads the system more then the max power available (motor and kinetic) to maintain the rotor speed, the speed will bleed off.

What presents the load to the system is the blades, the rotor speed and the pitches (both collective and cyclic) that we select at any point in time.

The one thing in the load equation that we cannot change in the air is the length, or type of blades. But we can change the pitchs and the rotor speeds. So if we select a rotor speed that matches well with the available power at the selected EFM compromise, then we will aways be "good to go".

So now that we have a set blade size, and a set rotor speed, the only thing that we can change relative to load, is the collective and cyclic pitches. So as long as we do not present the system with a combination of these that will overload we should never have a "bog".

Sounds simple doesn't it. But it can get a little complicated through a maneuver. So let us look at that.

Let us say that you do a full climb at 1900 and wide open throttle and your rotor speed declines. Well, we can't get more power, as we already have the engine tuned properly and the throttle barrel is wide open. So if we want to maintain that rotor speed (RS) then the only factor we can change is the amount of laod (pitch) we have dialed in at the top. Once you dial that down so that you can climb at full stick without a decrase in RS, then you will know that you are "maxed". So let us say that is at 10 degrees. You know konw that your EFM can pull 10 degrees of pitch at 1900 and come back smiling.

But what if I add some cyclic to turn at full stick - oops the RS starts to bleed off - Why? Because you have added more load then the "max". So basically, you know as long as you keep your total "pitch" loading to 10 degrees, it will all be fine.

Now in a stationary hover (say you have 4 degrees of collective at 1900), you will find that the throttle cannot be wide open, or it will overspeed because you have way less load then at 10 degrees. So your throttle curve will have a setting that allows the EFM system to open the carb just enough to give the power needed to hover, say 50%. So that means I have a lot of power waiting to be tapped, so I can add 6 degrees of cyclic (for a flip for example)as 4 + 6 = 10.

But OOPS it starts to bog if you do not have a governor. Why? because the throttle is still only half open, but when you pulled full aft cyclic and fed in that 6 degrees, you presented the system with a full load!!! So unless you have a 50% elevator to throttle mixed in there, to open your throttle all the way, and give you back the throttle opening you need for a full load, you will lose RS.

So if you have governor or a properly set throttle curves and mixes to handle all the load changes, you can bleed off head speed very quickly.

This also shows you the importance of learning collective and pitch management. As everytime you overload the system past what power it has available, you will have to give it time to recover. And remember any internal cumbustion engine cannot recover as fast as an electric can (almost instantly as long as the battery has the capacity).

And as you overload and bleed of RS, the tail rotor will be loaded further to take up the changing torque, this will present a further load to the available power...making it worst, so the sooner you back off on something (ease off some collective, some cyclic or a bit of both), the better.

Back to the beginning - for my 3D flying, using a G231 with the old V1 Century muffler and RT710 blades I find the stock 6.28 works well at sea level or close to it. At 4000 feet, I would probably change the blades and tweak it differently. Ditto for drag racing or for AP work.
10-05-2008 02:12 AM
 
 
AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

Cody

the point I am trying to make is that with the stock box muffler you do not get the advantages offered by "tuned" mufflers and pipes. As you know, there are "waves" that set up inside it and help scavange the exhaust out and therefore the engine breathes better. There is no doubt an advantage to JUST ABOUT any muffler or pipe in comparison to teh stock one. Most noteworthy is that muffler is the same one that came on the old g-22 and g-23 engines.... and we can both agree that those were no powerhouses, huh?

After re-reading your post, I think you are assuming I am running the stock muffler now. No, I have an original "prototype" V1 torpedo on mine. The test with the box muffler VS the torpedo was at 6.43 gearing, 720MM rotortechs, 11 degrees pos/neg pitch and 6 degrees cyclic available. The stock muffler just fell on its face in comparison.

GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0
10-05-2008 02:27 AM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

ah

James,

Sorry I must have mis read your post James. Yes the 23's where not any powerhouses. Nothing like what we have now. James have you thought of stroking your engine 30 thousanths and see what that does?



-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
10-05-2008 03:58 AM
 
 
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