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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Kasama Head
 
 
ZAC ATTACK
Veteran
Location: Hamilton Ontario, CANADA

Is there something wrong in the head&tail assemblies here??The guy told me it flys better like this!!
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t460519p1/

MAAC#77677 Medicated daily for your protection
09-17-2008 08:34 PM
 
 
Swoop
Key Veteran
Location: Newark, DE USA

The tail looks fine, but I don't see any need to flip the grips like he has done. In doing this, the mixing arms are now upside down with the angle facing up on the short end. Not sure if this has negative affect but was not the original design intent. The Kasama flies great with no mods.
09-17-2008 08:57 PM
 
 
Ben-T-Spindle
Elite Veteran
Location: Central Illinois

Man that’s going to really screw up the head geometry. Kasama went to a lot of trouble to get all the linkage at 90 degrees. If it’s everything’s not 90 degrees the blade tracking will vary with control input. I have been flying the Kasama head the correct way for a couple of years and it works great. Definitely put that thing together correctly before you attempt any 3D.





... BTS
09-17-2008 09:11 PM
 
 
ZAC ATTACK
Veteran
Location: Hamilton Ontario, CANADA

Both blade grips should be turned 180*(flipped) so the contol arm on the blade grips are on the other side,the tail blades are rotating counter-clockwise.

MAAC#77677 Medicated daily for your protection
09-17-2008 09:13 PM
 
 
Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

Quote 
If it’s everything’s not 90 degrees the blade tracking will vary with control input.

Why? If both mixers are set the same with the control rods the same length as pairs I don't believe that tracking will be an issue.

I ain't buyin till I see it flyin.....talk is cheep
09-17-2008 10:51 PM
 
 
Heli 770
Elite Veteran
Location: Lemon Grove, Ca. USA.

Billebob
On Kasamas mixing arms for the Raptor 50 one side of the arms is made 3 degrees neg.
09-17-2008 11:08 PM
 
 
Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

So.... As long as both arms are on the same way it still should track fine. Look at the FAI offset on the R90SE pitch arms. The point is tracking issues are non-existant. Either blade will be at the same value at similar points of rotation for a given cyclic and/or collective value. Flipping raptor 50 grips will not cause tracking issues.

bb

I ain't buyin till I see it flyin.....talk is cheep
09-18-2008 12:45 AM
 
 
Heli 770
Elite Veteran
Location: Lemon Grove, Ca. USA.

Billebob
My point is it will lose 3 degrees of pos. pitch. the swash can only go so high.

If you look at the photos again, You can see how long the Double links are.
09-18-2008 01:21 AM
 
 
ZAC ATTACK
Veteran
Location: Hamilton Ontario, CANADA

That Kasama head set-up looks very unsafe to me!

MAAC#77677 Medicated daily for your protection
09-18-2008 02:47 AM
 
 
Heliplane
Heliman
Location: Topeka, KS

Grip flip

As far as the geometry on the head goes yeah it looks a little funny but at zero everything is 90 and I get +12.5/-12.5 and I'm telling you I've flown it both ways it hits harder with the grips flipped. There is no issue with running out of threads on any of the links so I really do not see what the big deal is. I will say that on my original Raptor with the Kasama head after a #of flights my Dad kept getting the infamous Woof's with V-blades and after the grip flip he never had a problem again(over 200 flights with the grips flipped he logs his flights). As far as it being unsafe that is total crap. I am not a beginner and there is nothing unsafe about any of my helis. Still don't know what you are talking about on my tail??? Everything looks right to me. I still say it feels a lot more responsive on the collective with the grips flipped but to each there own I guess.
09-18-2008 06:07 AM
 
 
Heliplane
Heliman
Location: Topeka, KS

tail grips

If you flip the tail grips 180 then they would be trailing edge control?? Is that how there supposed to be??? I didn't get any instructions so I set them up the same way as the stock ones and the tail holds great in fast backward flight and piros are real consistent.
09-18-2008 06:18 AM
 
 
Heli 770
Elite Veteran
Location: Lemon Grove, Ca. USA.

Heliplane
The tail is right.
09-18-2008 06:27 AM
 
 
Swoop
Key Veteran
Location: Newark, DE USA

The tail should be leading edge control, its fine.
09-18-2008 11:48 AM
 
 
Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

Quote 
I really do not see what the big deal is.

There is none, what you have is incorrect comments being made about something that is done differently from what was intended for a specific reason; delta reversal. To be blunt poeple picking apart your alteration have not reasoned the system out as the links are adjustable to find the system center for a 3-D setup. Just make sure the washout arms don't bind on the washout links at full cyclic (it certainly looks good from the pictures). You've obviously done the mod, checked the system out completely, measured blade values plus and come out with a net benefit of no woofs. I'd leave things as they are. You could also acquire more pitch if you wanted at the blades since you can move out on the short end of the mixer.

There may be (and I say might as I don't have the unit in my possession) another small benefit with the mixers upside down in that the long rod will have less of a tendency to rub the head block at max cyclic and collective(bottom swashplate travel)

bb

I ain't buyin till I see it flyin.....talk is cheep
09-18-2008 12:32 PM
 
 
GaryB
Heliman
Location: Kansas

...yes, Heliplane flipped the grips on the Kasama head on my Raptor 50...and yes, it was a noticeable improvement!...

...as far as being "unsafe"...how about Thunder Tiger (going back 2-3 years, probably the no. 1 selling 3d heli at the time) producing thousands of helis with the well documented "woof" and "poof" problem - that and the resultant crashes would have potential for being unsafe...but flipping the grips???...the "woof" was a continual problem for me and resulted in damage on several occasions (i'm not very good at autos) - flipping the grips solved the problem and gave the heli a more crisp response...

...as far as putting it "...together correctly before you attempt any 3D" - i had scores of flights with it in this configuration and no problems, no tracking issues - i flew funnels, flips, rolls, loops (even a few hurricanes), and other mild 3D...my son also had several flights with it doing hard 3D...

...i had approximately as many flights with it set up with trailing edge control as with leading edge control - i definitely liked it with the leading edge control better - i owned 2 Raptor 50's at the time - the Raptor 50 with leading edge control (flipped grips) was my first choice - the Raptor 50 with Mavrick head (trailing edge control) was my backup...

...to summarize - i have scores of flights with the Kasama flipped grip setup with nothing but positive results - nothing adverse to report - people should do their homework before making derogatory comments about something they don't fully understand and/or have no personal experience with and that has a very negative impact on a member's sale...a sale of a tricked out Raptor 50 at a bargain basement price (this is not the same heli that Heliplane flipped the grips on for me...so we know there's at least 2 successful flipped grip Kasama setups out there)...

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t460519p1/

Trex 600N Pro, Trex 600N Pro(w/belt drive), Raptor 50, Trex 450, Blade 400 3D, 2 Blade CP's...
09-18-2008 01:04 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ZAC ATTACK
Veteran
Location: Hamilton Ontario, CANADA

Im glad you like it!Purchasing a $250,metal, precisionly machined head and doing a grip flip with it,kinda like having a Harley_Davidson and putting a Suzuki motor in it! Back a long time ago guys were doing the grip-flip beacause of woof-poof problem,so now why would one wanna do a grip flip to the best upgrade on the market for a R50?? I just dont get it! It still looks un safe!!

MAAC#77677 Medicated daily for your protection
09-18-2008 07:19 PM
 
 
Ben-T-Spindle
Elite Veteran
Location: Central Illinois

Quote 

Back a long time ago guys were doing the grip-flip beacause of woof-poof problem,so now why would one wanna do a grip flip to the best upgrade on the market for a R50?? I just dont get it! It still looks un safe!!
That was way way back in the V1 days.

It makes the helicopter look like a total rookie assembled it and had no idea what they were doing.



... BTS
09-18-2008 08:10 PM
 
 
Heliplane
Heliman
Location: Topeka, KS

Just Drop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah that must be it, it must have been a rookie mistake. You don't even know me you arrogant piece of crap. I bet dollars to donuts that if you knew me personally or had ever seen one of my heli's fly you wouldn't be making your little ****ty comments. I don't spend 10 hours a week on runryder starting crap for no reason with somebody that is just trying to sell a heli. If you re read my sale ad I even state that I will be more than happy to put the head back to the stock config. You know what really pisses me off about this situation is that neither one of you were ever interested in buying the heli so why don't you get a life. You are worse than a sewing circle. Get a girlfriend, get out and fly do something!!!
09-18-2008 09:22 PM
 
 
Jag72
Elite Veteran
Location: 20 minutes south of Boston Mass...

Grip Flip...

Anyone who has anything to say negatively about the grip flip obviously doesn't know enough to be commenting..

...it changes the feel a bit but that's a preference for the pilot ...I have some machines that are leading edge and some that are trailing edge...I have flipped the grips on a couple that were trailing edge...

Overall it doesn't change the machine characteristics all that much..it definitely doesn't make it unsafe by any means..

I flipped the grips on my ROxxter vbar machine and my 3dmpe vbarred machine...anyone have anything negative to say about that?

You guys need something better to do than waste your time worrying about this...
09-18-2008 09:35 PM
 
 
ZAC ATTACK
Veteran
Location: Hamilton Ontario, CANADA

The post was started beacause the Head was assembled incorrectly.Thats all!!No disrespect was meant to you.You stated to me it flys better with the grip-flip done,so i wanted to hear some input on all the improvements that come along with your grip-flip program.I thought Helicopter forums were made for knowledge and imformation so one can improve on builds and abilities to excel in this complex hobby!Try not to take it any other way,your letting your feelings get in the way of knowledge.I will close the topic shortly and get back to my sewing!

MAAC#77677 Medicated daily for your protection
09-18-2008 09:45 PM
 
 
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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Kasama Head
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