rrTV-PHOTO   New HD TV
HOME   rrTV-PHOTO   GALLERIES   MY GALLERY   HELP-FAQ
myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 436 ONLINE 25 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER  START HERE
 
2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ]618 viewsPOST REPLY
Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters . XHELI.COM

.
.
JR Heli Vibe - Airskipper - Sylphide - Venture > atg multiple headspeeds?
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

I have my atg setup on the gear channel like it says in the manual and I cannot get it to work properly. I have gear setup +110 (g view says 2100 HS) and -80. if I start up with the switch down(+) then it goes up to 2100 and when I pull the switch it will slow down to somthing like 1900. but if I put the switch back down it will not speed back up I can see the throttle servo and it does not move (I can see that it is about 50%) but the only way to get the HS back up to 2100 is to land and take off again.

what do you think my problem is?
09-08-2008 01:23 AM
 
 
Goose(is dead...)
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

ATG

It sounds like your 'basic' data setting didn't go so well. By that I mean in the intial procedure you need to dial in what full throttle is, zero throttle is so the Gov knows the parameters it has to work with.

I would recommend that you start with a clean slate by erasing all the data held in the ATG. I forget which buttons you hold down for 10 secs or so.

Also consider your ATV's, they should be at least 100% each way. If this is not the case do some mechanical adjustment.

Then, dialling in the head speeds (after you've defined the gear ratio) should be pretty easy

good luck !

G
09-08-2008 12:40 PM
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

umm maybe you did not understand, I did all that it is setup near perfect with the servo at +-110 and the linkage is perfect. inkspot helped me with the setup of the atg and I know all the servo endpoints are correct, I have the gear ratio on 87.

let me try to redo my question, the atg is working fine at the 2100 rpm setting I have flown several tanks with lots of power and a very consistant headspeed. the problem is when I flip the gear switch down to the 1900 rpm setting and then try to get it to go back to 2100. 1900 works fine but it will never rev up again unless I land first and reset the throttle. the govener has three modes right now it is normal is that what it should be in?
09-08-2008 02:45 PM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

What does your throttle curve look like?

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
09-09-2008 05:03 AM
 
 
Goose(is dead...)
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

ATG probs

Hi again Wing man, if you let me know what version of the ATG you have and also, what mode you are running it in (normal gov mode or ATG mode) I will do my best to do a quick 'set-up' running sheet.

I think problem maybe the % at which the ATG takes command of the throttle - could be wrong though.

Send through as above and I'll have a crack for you

cheers


Dead.
09-09-2008 05:27 AM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

The pickup point is based on the low throttle setting, so if you set the ATG up using your V curve, it basically can't work. Low needs to be basically idle or cutoff, and high full throttle to get those points set correctly . . .

- TIm

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
09-09-2008 06:53 AM
 
 
Goose(is dead...)
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

pick up point

My thoughts exactly, remembering that throttle trim bears no movement on full throttle. It just 'creeps' in half-throttle and down...
09-09-2008 02:07 PM
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

in normal mode above somthing like 30% the atg is not effected at all by throttle position so instead of a curve I have a flat 90%

my atg is a v3
09-09-2008 09:31 PM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

And there lies your problem. Flat curves on nitro govs like the ATG are a VERY bad idea . . . . Depending on mode, the ATG *will* look at the curve to anticipate load. You (as you have seen) can't setup properly with a flat curve, and god forbid lose a magnet and try to land - you will blow the head apart overspeeding coming through zero pitch.

Set a proper curve, and try again . . . . it can only help . . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
09-10-2008 12:44 AM
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

ok I will set a curve up but I know for a fact that will not help the problem at hand
09-10-2008 01:24 AM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

At the very least, it will get you around several other issues, and I think it may help here depending on where your endpoints were before . . . they need to go from 0 to 100 to get the ATG properly calibrated to your radio . . . *then* you set the curve.

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
09-10-2008 04:05 AM
 
 
Goose(is dead...)
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

A summation of the Active Throttle Governor (ATG) by CY

I’ve penned this note in an attempt to give some clarity of the advantages of the ATG. It starts from the bottom and slowly works its way through the reason for having a governor and builds to the ATG. So I make no apologies for stating the obvious as let’s face it, heli’s and their set-up are anything but straight-forward.

First, how a standard governor operates:

As an example, let’s aim for a head speed of 1950 rpm on a heli with a 8:1 gear ratio (The Vibe 90 has this ratio). If your governor magnet is on the main gear you simply dial in 1950 head rpm on a particular flight mode (N, 1, 2). If the magnet is on the engine shaft your governor needs to know that it is aiming for a head rpm of 1950 multiplied by the gear ratio:

1950 x 8 = 15,600 rpm

**Generally, a the governor is inactive for ‘N’ mode as it used for hovering and also lets you use the pitch / throttle trims on the Tx that are only active in N mode.

So back to flying about with a head speed of 1950 rpm (most likely in Flight Mode 2) the governor has control of the throttle and does its job of holding that pre-determined head speed.

But every governor has a small ‘lag time’ in its operation. Imagine your hovering steady and put in full +ve collective for a fast climb. The force this creates on the blades will slow the head rpm as it didn’t know that a ‘request’ for considerably power was coming. And albeit a split-second, the governor takes a few rotations to identify the head rpm has slowed down. Once it has, it then opens up the carby. And if you don’t have quick throttle servo (higher than 0.10 secs/60deg) the lag will be amplified. Finally, the engine responds with more power and the head rpm returns to its target.

Unlike fixed wing motor setups, the set up of a heli engine also needs to have its torque curve considered. Yes it’s getting the maximum power out of the engine but this is done by identifying the peak torque of the engine as well. A broader, stronger torque curve will also be created by a good pipe; Both the Muscle Pipes and Hatori’s for 50’s and 90’s are faultless when set-up. My preference is the MP 5 range, but the performance of the Hatori’s don’t lie.

But back to the ‘lag’, their was a phase a year or two ago whereby a few smart lads attempted to beat this lag, or ‘bogging down’ cited in pushing the limits of their heli’s;

To use the same numbers let’s say they identified 15,600 rpm as the optimal rpm for power and torque. What they did was to set the governor at ~~= 16,000 rpm anticipating that when a sudden load on the engine came about and the head speed & engine rpm dropped, it dropped to the engine’s most powerful rpm (15,600). It was good for a while but then those lads found their engines were losing power over time. It was due to their fuel mixture set for 15,600 rpm was running lean at 17K and therefore cooking their engines. Time for a trip to the hobby shop…

It must be acknowledged that to date the best gov on the market is the Futaba GV-1. For it’s accuracy, set-up and overall performance. The only thing that didn’t really take off that the GV-1 offers is the ability to integrate a servo controlling the fuel mixture on a special carb. Too much mucking about; requiring a multi-point throttle curve to be programmed. I have heard pilots make this work and work very well but they also conceded it was a long arduous process.

The Pitch Curve
**Just before I go into the next section I should let you know about my pitch curves. And I set them up like this as someone who can fly ten times better than me taught me to do so:

N = 0% stick (idle) 5 degrees negative. At 50% stick 0 degrees. 100% stick +12 degrees.

1 = 0% stick negative 12 degrees. 50% 0 degrees. 100% positive 12 degrees

The pitch curve for FM 2 is exactly the same as for 1.

The pitch curve for Flight Modes 1 & 2 give you 5 crucial points:

Moving the stick from bottom to top you have:

1. Max negative collective (-ve 12 deg)
2. hover point when inverted
3. Zero degrees for stall turns / tail slides / whatever
4. hover point when upright
5. Max positive collective (+ve 12deg)

Because this pitch curve is literally linear, it quickly becomes natural and familiar as there are no ‘tricky’ curves or arcs to contend with. It makes your flying and transitions very smooth. Even though the top radios give a 7 or 9 point option (don’t know about the new JR Tx), they’re better used in scale, maybe in F3C in the hovering maneuvers I’m not sure what the setups of others’ are but we’re covering 3D.


Introducing the CY-ATG

It wouldn’t be fair to say that this lag we continue to refer to is a large problem. Any .91 on a pipe with 30% nitro well set-up can produce the torque needed to handle blinding tic-toc’s or tail slides by Lucas Riva that trim the grass !! (my favorite pilot). It is however, more obvious on 50’s simply because they don’t have the thrust/torque to weight of the 90’s

But Curtis in creating the ATG has delivered a painfully obvious solution, or advantage. Look at it how you will:

The lag time compounds from a pitch inducement, head rpm slowing, gov detecting, servo reacting, opening the carb and finally the engine producing the additional power.

But what if the carby opened at exactly the same time as the pitch of the blades changed, so that the head rpm never dropped?

It’s just too easy as the ATG ‘looks at’ or ‘considers’ your
pre-programmed throttle curves. As you move your throttle / collective stick the ATG is literally ‘predictive’ of your request for more power because of your pre-set throttle curve and uses this data so that there is never a head speed drop. Well, at least to the best of the abilities of the engine & pipe & tuning, etc

I hope this has helped some getting their head around the benefits of the ATG. If there are errors, I apologize. It’s late !!

Tomorrow, part 2 is how to set-up the ATG for max performance.

Any comments please shoot. I’m not the precious type

Cheers
Goose
09-10-2008 02:10 PM
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

I just looked at my throttle curves and realized that I did set it up as a v curve and not a flat line. I think I will switch the govener to active mode and see how that works.
09-10-2008 05:10 PM
 
 
Fastsrt
Senior Heliman
Location: Old Hickory, Tn.37138

Looking forward to part 2.

Wingman77,
I have my flight modes 1&2 setup as a v curve, in normal mode on my ATG i could not tell a big difference in trying to turn up the headspeed, i could go to 120% and it all sounded the same but if i dropped it to like 70% then you could hear it drop. I rest mine last night into multi-active mode, today i was out flying and then i could notice a difference. It was better than when i had it i normal mode. I have the ATGV3 on a vibe 50, although i still have some tweaking to do i am off to a better start in active mode.

2 x Synergy N9's, T-Rex 700, Trex 600N, Vibe 50, Trex 250
09-11-2008 05:06 AM
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

I still do not think anyone here understands my problem yet....

the problem is not that it will not go to 2100HS the problem is not that it will not go to 1900 HS. the problem is that it will not go from 1900 to 2100 while I am flying when I flip the gear switch. if I take off with it set to 2100 and switch it to 1900 with the gear switch it will slow down to 1900 and work fine but it will not even try to go back to 2100 while I am flying I have to pull the throttle down to idle and then take it back up.
09-11-2008 06:53 PM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
in normal mode above somthing like 30% the atg is not effected at all by throttle position so instead of a curve I have a flat 90%

my atg is a v3

I tried to do the same thing.the ATG is not a limiter,it will not work with a flat line of 70% or more.In the normal mode operation the ATG will not use the throttle curve for corrections,in Active mode it will use the throttle curves and mixes first then add any needed corrections if the headspeed does not hold.
09-11-2008 07:06 PM
 
 
Fastsrt
Senior Heliman
Location: Old Hickory, Tn.37138

Wingman

What radio are you using? If it is a 9303 why are you using the gear switch and not the flight mode n,1,2 switch on the top left.

2 x Synergy N9's, T-Rex 700, Trex 600N, Vibe 50, Trex 250
09-12-2008 05:05 AM
 
 
Goose(is dead...)
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

Part 2: Setting the throttle curve for the ATG

**Wingman, I’m trying to get to the bottom of your issue. Sit tight, I haven’t cracked it yet. I’m flying all weekend and will have an answer or your money back!!

Before I start it would be remiss of me not to make the following crystal clear:

If you try and set up your heli for 3D & F3C in the same programme you’ll be trying for the rest of your life… Empirically, F3C set ups run heavier blades, paddles, flybar weights, different head speeds and so on. All of this is aiming to give the heli more stability as many of the set manoeuvres are hovering in the box and then the larger high-speed schedules are still far smoother than 3D.

Just a short mind-bender, F3C has more momentum in its rotary-wing (the combination of the main blades and paddles and flybar weights), higher gain in the gyro for heading hold and therefore gives the vector-group of the complete heli structure more inertia. More inertia sees the heli handle gusty conditions giving the pilot every opportunity to execute the precision manoeuvres in the F3C schedule.

For 3D, blades & paddles are lighter, most 50’s don’t run flybar weights (90’s are 50/50) and the head speed is very close to maximum. This flows on to higher roll-rates and more aggressive tricks and sometimes, digging the dirt… The best thing to do is have to independent programmes in your Tx; one for 3D and one for F3C.

Setting the throttle curve for the ATG

For the ATG in Normal mode, the deal is done as it is just like any other gov. In ATG mode, let’s go for these figures which are more like the config for a 50 than a 90:

N = 1,750
1 = 1,900
2 = 2,100

Setting up a V – curve is really simple as there are only three points and two of those points are 100% throttle. There are many ways to set the bottom point on the curve, this is the easiest and most accurate (a sky-taco is pretty easy too!):

Utilising the ATG in Normal Mode

It doesn’t matter if you have a G-View unit or not. Without the G-View go through the sequential LED displays and dial in your preferred speed in Mode 1. Then take the heli to a hover at eye level for at least 30 seconds as this will allow you to become familiar with that head speed. Raise the heli up and down slowly until you’re satisfied how that head speed feels. Then, in N Mode with the gov completely off, work with your manual throttle curve to replicate the same feel that you had with the governor on; Eg a 7-point throttle curve should end up something like:

5%, 10%, 30%, 30%, 30%, 30%, 30%

It won’t take long to find the percentage that gives you the same head RPM with the Gov on, in this case, obviously 30%. And that percentage becomes your centre low point in the V. It’s literally that simple repeating the same process for each flight mode.

Some have experimented with a 5-point V-curve but this actually won’t help the ATG, it usually retards its performance. The next (and final) memo will go into the more complex features of the ATG so I’m sorry but you will probably be waiting a week. I will also try to give solutions to the problems people are having with their set up. Like a few already have, please post your issues and include what Brand Tx you have, your ATV’s, percentages for each flight mode and even if the channel is reversed or not. It will help a bunch.

Thank you

Goose (is dead…)
09-12-2008 11:42 AM
 
 
stanc
Veteran
Location: Conroe, TX

wingman77
One thing you might look at, go to the manual and look at page 24. Have you checked to see what the LED is doing when switching between the two Head Speeds and not changing the throttle stick position?

For some reason I still don't think you set it up correctly with the low and high throttle. The flight mode has to be in Normal Mode when you set it up, so the ATG could see "O" and "100". You said you had it in the Gear Channel as the manual suggested, the manual says to put it in the AUX2 channel.
Quote 
I have my atg setup on the gear channel like it says in the manual and I cannot get it to work properly.
If it is in the Gear channel, what channel is the Gyro in. If you are using a DX7 TX, try putting the Gyro in the gear channel and the ATG in the AUX2 channel. Really shouldn't make in difference as long as the radio is set up for the arrangement you have, maybe less confusing if the Gyro was in the gear channel and the ATG in the AUX2 channel as the manual says.
If all else fails, I would start over and set it up step by step with the manual and the G-View and I'll bet it starts working correctly.

Stan
2 x Ion X2
eStartus
eAvro90
Performance Plus Lipo Packs
09-12-2008 03:16 PM
 
 
Wingman77
Elite Veteran
Location: Pulaski TN US

Quote 
For some reason I still don't think you set it up correctly with the low and high throttle.
I assure you that this is not the probelm, what I would like to know now is if anyone else that has an atg can get it to switch back and forth between headspeeds in flight?


I have the solid g in aux2 I but gear and aux2 are exactly the same just different places on the transmitter so that is not the problem. I do have my throttle 0-100 set up fine, I always have. I have travel adjust +- 100 exactly (after going thru three servo horns to get one that would do it) when I plug the G-view in to check headspeed setting it is 2100 and if I pull the switch up it is 1900 as I set it.
09-12-2008 04:08 PM
 
 
2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ]618 viewsPOST REPLY
Autography FlightPower . Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models

.
.
JR Heli Vibe - Airskipper - Sylphide - Venture > atg multiple headspeeds?
 PRINT TOPIC Advertisers 

Subscribe to This Topic

Thursday, January 8 - 6:14 am - Copyright © 2000 - 2009 runryder.com | email | link to rr | runryder needs cookie