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Aerial Photography and Video > Viewinder mini cam lens size ?
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Std 1/3" CCD has a 3.6mm lens

Does anyone here know the lens required to focus the mini cam through a SLR viewfinder

It need to reduce angle so 8mm seems to look close to the angle required.
Any ideas on size used ?
I need to source one here in Aus so need the size.
05-02-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Hi MPA,

I've experimented with this uising a 1/4" CCD mini cam on a Canon EOS 650. (I have a vague recollection that my 1/3" bullet cam operated identically with the stated lenses - but I can re-test for you if it's critical).

With the 1/4" I found that a 8mm lens cropped the viewfinder image so that you lost about 5% either side of a full height 4:3 video frame - visually this is an appealing option.



As a matter of preference I settled on a 6mm lens, this to my mind is a better technical solution because it allows the full width of the viewfinder image to appear on the downlink and utilises the additonal height of the 4:3 video frame to display the exposure, focus and shot-confirmation indicator bar like this:



Cheers,

Julian
05-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Hi Julian

See the "Digital eyepiece" thread below.
I found a lens from a webcam and turned the body down to fit the mini camera body I had
That is a 4.8mm lens from the 3.6mm.

I could go to a larger one like 6mm but Id have to order it from Taiwan or USA.
The camera I have only has 8mm and 12mm optional lenses to order from US or Asia but it is only a fixed mini lens so I could convert a 6mm to fit mine.
Optional lenses are not stocked anywhere here in Aus I can find which is the whole conundrum otherwise I could go and buy a few and try them.

The WebCam is obtainable around here from old cameras and the 4.8mm gives a pretty good size..
The problem also for me is I use various cameras and am yet to check it against them all.
So far most have indicators at the bottom bar one, with the 4.8mm lens I still have a little to the side to fit in a side bar indicator. (I think the EOS5000 has) I just need to try it out.

Here is an image capture off it with the 4.8mm lens now
(via the VCR and AV capture also night time here and small room so it not a good image to show the quality but it shows the size)


Thats looking through eyepiece of Canon EOS5 with an EF 28 -105 lens.

The 3.6mm was way too small viewfinder image, a 6mm may be a little too large for this perhaps.
I have not spotted anything in between that, say 5.5mm

Cheers
Dave.
05-06-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Looks like you are on the case already.

FYI, it appears that these guys could help in your neck of the woods, they even specify a 5.7mm for a 1/3" PCB cam - seems they were thinking of you.

http://www.ness.com.au/cctv.htm#Lenses

good luck,

Julian
05-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Thanks Julian

The 1/3" CCD lenses Ive looked at to date where all larger by a fair degree, what they term "C" and "CS" mount lenses and seem to be for the slightly larger security camera box than the mini or pinhole cam.

The smaller fixed lenses we use in the min 1/4" cams I had no luck with as far as getting optional ones, only the C and CS types.

I think the reason the large ones are available here is the C and CS lens mount means lenses are interchangeable from varifocal to manual iris etc to suit and would be bought by those fitting security systems, whereas, the 1/4" mini cam box has a thread that varies depending on the unit not to a standard and is not as popular as the security cam gear with C and CS in 1/3" CCD.

A CS lens can be fitted to a C mount with a small metal ring so that expands its options and makes it even more worth them carrying a selection of CS lenses, that the mini lens doesn't provide the sellers to carry on hand.

If I was in Europe no probs
http://www.cop-eu.com/catalog/acata...ni_Lens_15.html
Another branch in the US too and Taiwan
http://www.cop-security.com/pages/lenses.html

Cheers
Dave
05-06-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Err, yes Dave.

You have eloquently defined a local requirement for the 5.7mm version of the little lens in this picture on the NESS website i.e. the one in front of all the C / CS lenses. I'm unsure how to gain additional benefit from the analysis. I got all my little optional lenses etc from http://www.rfconcepts.co.uk, they cost £10 each. In your case, suggest you contact NESS http://www.ness.com.au/contact.htm buy your lens, take photos & be happy

Julian

[yes I am also annoyingly cerebral and my name is julian]
05-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

The ones at the NESS site are not suitable.
They dont have a 5.7mm mini fixed lens, only a C or CS type.
Note on the NESS site.
"1/3 PCB camera macro lenses, 2.9mm, 3.6mm, 5.7mm, 8mm, 12mm"
Macro lenses
They are all CS mount.
They show a mini lens in the foreground but they certainly dont sell a selection such as they do for the CS lenses shown and not a 5.7mm in mini lens.
This is the same across the board here in Aus and there is a reason why Ive given.
Importing stuff is my last resort I try to source all I can locally so I can replace it if need be without waiting save force majore.

I got the lens I needed and can get more for free no waiting or force majore and the mail system so Im happy already.

Cheers
Dave
05-06-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Right, now you have my goat.

This is not a C or CS mount camera, this is the Ness 1/3 inch CCD board camera:



And here are the fixed lenses that Ness do for it including the 5.7mm mini fixed lens:



Here's the rest of the CCTV product catalogue including all the CS lenses & cameras as well as all the board cameras and mini lenses just so we're clear on the destinction. (it's a 2.1Meg pdf download).

http://www.ness.com.au/doc/Ness02_public_cctv.pdf

To borrow from FinnDave (if I may):

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams
05-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Julian

1/4" CCD
All that info is great if you have a 1/3" CCD,
but I dont I have a 1/4" CCD.

1/3" 6mm lens will not give the same FOV angle as a the same 6mm lens over a 1/4" CCD and that is if the lens fits the 1/4" CCD body which it doesnt in this case.

1/4" CCD optional lenses is something you wont get here in Aus.
The reason for that you wont ever understand until you come here and me explaining the conundrum makes no sense to you.

Ive explained it but you seem to take it badly, maybe Im just used to the fact I cant get stuff like you can and dont see why you cant understand it.

NESS company, they are an importer and they dont have any stores and you cannot buy from them direct, they have dealers, the dealers are one man operations who fit security cameras and have a range of stock amounting to zippo and certainly no shop to go and peruse.
The dealer has no 1/4" lenses, I called him, and indian fellow, I had to leave a message on his answering machine because he was out.

You are looking at the head end of the horse but what I get here in Aus is from the other end.

Web sites are the biggest thing for donkey little importers here to ever arrive, they can have a web site that makes them look like a regular big business even if they are not.
Security cam companies are not..
Everything is to order they have no stock on hand.
The shops carry full kits, 1 or 2 of at best and no accesories or replacement parts to go.

That's life here and the way it is for numerous specialty products which this lens would be classed as here.

Cheers
Dave
05-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FinnDave
Elite Veteran
Location: Kouvola, Finland

Quote 
To borrow from FinnDave (if I may):


Of course!

David S., Kouvola, Finland
05-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Jeez Dave, I give up.

Just check your original question where you wrote you had a 1/3" CCD.

You're a bright guy, I'm sure you'll figure it out - which in part you have already with your webcam lens though webcam lenses are normally nasty and plastic because there is traditionally no point trying to pump high quality video into a web stream via your home PC.

If you read my previous post you'll see that I also have a 1/4" CCD on my EOS hence the simple answer to your original question is 6mm - above is a photo to show what that looks like through the viewfinder.
I also have a 1/3" CCD mini camera. From experience I can tell you that the lenses are identical and the FOV also nearly identical (the only reason I don't use the excellent 1/3" on my viewfinder is that is a bullet-cam form factor and the length of it fouls my helicam tilt assemby).

Besides your obvious technical prowess wrt your helicam (much respect btw) you also have posted to indicate that you have busiess experience. I therefore find it hard to imagine how you could be unable to phone up Ness and blag a couple of $10 sample lenses no matter what their distribution model is.

PM me you address and I'll call them for you if that is what will make the pain go away.

Also, from a practical perspective, these lenses are 1. cheap. 2. the very last thing that is likely to be destroyed even if you flew your helicam directly into a cliff - or to put it another way, if you managed to destroy a metal encased $10 lens sitting in a protected position on the back of your SLR then I'm sure you will have bigger things to worry about that day - So why not just buy what you need from anywhere in the world and just have done with it - it's unlikely to be a regular purchase!

Bottom line, what beat's me, is if you have all the answers why ask the question in the first place???

Take care buddy,

Julian
05-07-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
Jeez Dave, I give up.

Are you sure your from the UK ?
Doesnt look like it.

To the point at hand.

See the "Digital eyepiece" thread below.
(in flashing lights)
The issue was resolved before you offered your advice and I assumed you'd read it.

It is pretty clear I am using a 1/4" CCD not a1/3" CCD
Like I wrote, wrong way!!, I'm not using a 1/3" CCD.

I explained in the other thread I assumed you had read, I have removed the plastic lens leaving the two glass lenses and they are as good a quality as the 1/4" cam 3.6mm lens I have.
Both pretty ordinary.

Your advice on supply is fine where it applies and that where you are not where I am, a place you have no concept of but that's a common mistake foregeiners make about Aus, and boy do some of you guys whinge when you get here and realise you cant buy a things you are used to popping down the local shop for, but that's a whole other story and that's life in Aus, you order, you wait, dont second guess the place or what NESS has on hand you'd be wrong.
I cant even buy most heli parts here let alone mini CCD camera parts and that's the half of it Julian.

"will make the pain go away."
You seem to have a blind spot to the fact I already have a lens that works, thanks all the same.

"the very last thing that is likely to be destroyed "
I never said anything about destroyed appart from it needing to be modified but also the fact I can only take your advice that a 6mm will do the job and if it wrong then I have to order it again and wait another week or however long.

At the rate of your advice being that a 3.6mm lens is the same on a 1/4" to a 1/3" CCD Id say you have a bung eye because that conflicts with the lens listing Ive looked at and they make them, they should know.

So I get a 6mm lens on your say so from the other end of the planet ignoring the listing advice of lens makers and find when it finaly arrives you do have a bung eye, ah bugger !
Here we go again and you'd be on my **** list.

Quote 
Bottom line, what beat's me, is if you have all the answers why ask the question in the first place???


I answered it myself in the other thread thats why I wrote above.
"See the "Digital eyepiece" thread below."
Open your eyes Julian dont be a pedantic git.

I tried to get the info out of the moo at the office but no go, dealers only, see the dealer who is some "sole proprietor" which around here colloqially = we dont have a damn thing I just take calls and orders.

There are 3 sources here on a level you would have as in the stock those items here in Aus.
Jaycar Electronics
Dick Smith Elctronics
Radio Parts.
They import and stock large ranges of goods like this but there is no-one else.
Dick Smith electronics is owned by Woolworths.

These 3 places have provided my entire needs for the helicam from gears to batteries and the AV sender and mini cam etc.
But a stock of CCD lenses they dont have other than 1/3" C or CS mount.

The rest of the companies who deal in this kind of thing and small parts are all to order, you order and pay then you wait however long and from overseas it can be days or months, often they cant tell you how long.

We have to choose wisely before ordering goods they are not close by.
Even if I had to order the lens from interstate, that is still 1500 miles away from where I am in Sydney or 3000 miles in Brisbane.
It can take days to get parts from interstate even by air.

Why you up Nth cant fathom or comprehend this I dont know, you seem to think I am being difficult but you just dont get the picture and refuse to accept any reasoning.
Fine for you who can nick down the road and get another till you have it right, we cant OK, just accept that even if you cant understand it.

Kim in the other thread in New Zealand.
He has Jaycar and a few other smaller independants but thats about it and is in the same boat for parts he may have to order from overseas and will have to choose wisely.

Or use something locally available which is easier in most cases and something we down here in the Sth end of the planet are quite adept at as it was required by all our descendants to survive down here with only what they had close by, something you up Nth have never had to endure a life of so just take my word for it.
Ordering is not an easy option, there isnt anything available locally.

There is vast amounts of land, there is naff all people.
Bugger all customers to sell to, the few here are a great distance between each other, no-one to pay for full time helicam work, or stock specialty items and one offs.

As I said a concept you up there have no idea of, so much so that when tourists come here they wander off thinking Aus is not so large because there are so few people here, they get lost never to be seen again.
You could never imagine wandering off or getting lost anywhere in your country and walking for weeks and never seeing another person until you die of thirst or hunger.
Surely you would come across a highway or a house or some person.
Most places in Aus not in a capitol city here you can walk for 3 weeks and drop dead and you wont see house, person, (livestock of your lucky) or a road.
Nothing mate, "the never never" is what the Aboriginals call it.
We have places where it is so remote they dont bother having a speed limit on the roads.

Next time you decide to tell me what I can and cant get here in Aus you might grab an Atlas first and have a look.
There are a small number of capitol cities, (countable on one hand) and there is nothing in between them.
Rural towns with nothing in the local stores on a popular stretch of road a 1000 miles or more to the next capitol city..

To look around me and think I live in some modern industrialised landscape with vendors a plenty is laughable.
Traggically laughable.

And if its not enough we have to endure the tyranny of distance we all know well down here I have to deal with you and some xenophobes making wise arse cracks like it aint so and Im just making it all up and we should have all that you can get in the UK or USA and should have the markets you have in the UK or USA.

I wish we had consumer choice and supply you had, I wish we had the population and markets here that you have to trade with.
You lucky ****s.
But no respect from you lot up Nth to the fact this causes us immense frustration in the isolation from consumer goods and markets convienient to you, you lot rub the salt in and tell me it is a figment of my imagination.
And Im supposed to be pleased about it, dont expect me to be in this lifetime.
05-07-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Dave,

I wish you could see the smile on my face reading your post. It's OK, calm down and relax a little. So you can't find a lens (or can't wait a week), don't worry no one is going to die as a result.

Hopefully I will come and experience the wilderness for myself some day, and when I do, maybe you could offer me a tinny or a tube (or whatever you guys put beer in). I'd like to spend some time there, by all accounts you have a beautiful country that you can be proud of.

The way I see it there are a lot of different societies around the globe (and I've had the privelige of seeing more than many - though not yours I admit) each one offers a game with a set of rules and a set of goals that define success. Basically you are offerd the chance to understand the rules and play the game to achieve the goals. What you can't do is pick and choose - like I would love to step out of my office and drive home to a country where my income represents the GDP of a small town with big skies and wildlife all around me and time aplenty for mates and beer - but that's not reality. I live in a society that cost me circa US$80,000 per year to stand still and there's no avoiding it without dropping out - i.e. that's what I must work for as a minimun each year before I have any financial freedom whatsoever, and I must at least double that figure to feel in the least bit secure and multiply it many times over to feel successful. So I can buy lenses on 24 hour delivery. Big deal, 90% of my waking life I'm chained to a ****ing desk just to stay in the game! Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, in relative terms, winning here feels just as good as winning anywhere else. Actually I liked the Mayan indian perspective (Chiapas, Mexico) where from what I could understand, winning involved defeating a jaguar single handed and dragging it 3 days through the jungle for a heroes welcome back in the village.

The type of freedom of space and action you take for granted is unimaginable here to all but the most extraordinarily wealthy - beacuse there simply isn't enough room for anyone to go walkabout without encroaching on private property - and then there's the weather, enough said about that. But hey, let's say you enjoy the all space you have and I'll enjoy all my lenses and maybe we'll both be better off than bitching about what we don't have.

Believe me, having 65 million people crammed into a sardine can of a country has its drawbacks as well as its benefits. Why not come and live here for a while and get it out of your system? Or maybe you'd prefer the land of the free* they have both space and mini lenses! (* for free read free to be prosecuted or sued for any and all expression of feedom that may conceivably encroach on the freedom of others to live a life devoid of personal responsibility for their own safety or wellbeing). Hell forget mini lenses, bizzarely (even from a UK perspective) it appears the biggest US issue with helicams is paranoia regarding insurance to cover the ever-present risk of being ruined in a vexatious law suit.
It might be a wake up call to our US friends to mention that this is not the same the world over - at the age of 22, I was able to ride a 1000cc Kawasaki chopper 2-up all over South Africa legally without any insurance on the common sense understanding that the persons most clearly at risk were respectively myself and willing passenger, both of whom old enough to understand and take or leave the risk as adults. From memory, in SA a crash helmet was optional but my choice was to wear one. From a US perspective the insurance issue may be surprising, from a UK perspective, unlike the US or Oz you would need to understand that a 22 yr old riding a 1000cc motorcycle under any circumstances is an exraordinary freedom - our government and media would have us believe (despite the fact in this "democracy" most tax-payers and voters have cars) a "motorist", especially a driver of a large-engined vehicle is some kind of murderous creature set apart from civilisation to be fined and taxed to death at any opportunity, and, to a man, motorcyclists are juvenile idiots with a death wish. You practically have to jump through hoops and spend literally $100s to get a "big bike" license here, big bike = greater than125cc (restricted). We have 80% taxation on gas making a litre about £0.80 (US$4.87 per US Gallon). It costs me £70 ($113) to fill the tank of my car, can you imagine that!?

None of this is to say that the UK, Mexico, the US or SA or anywhere else for that matter is either universally a utopia or a hell-hole, that's not the case, all the pros and cons of these places can be weighed in the balance, to be percieved differently by each individual. I expect the same can be said of Oz.

It's a crying shame that the best of both worlds is not on offer, but that's life on planet Earth. We have only the choice to call somewhere home, accept the challenges that brings and by the grace of God make the best or the worst of it as we see fit. For your sake, I hope you choose well.

G'day from the UK

Julian
05-08-2003 Over year old.
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Dave, and please as a matter of trust, Dave only,

Send an e-mail to John Nowacki at Ness, jnowacki@ness.com.au

Tell him it's in reference to his conversation today with Julian Cox (me) and let him have your address re your product sample of a 5.7mm Board Cam lens, Ness product code 100-375

He said he has a few in stock and 20 more their way.

I offered to pay him for it twice but he declined saying that sending you a sample so that you could check it was good for your helicam application would be "no great drama" and "a pleasure". I expect that this means that if 5.7mm turns out to be unsuitable, he will work with you to get it right.

Take care,

Julian
05-08-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Julian

Im glad you understand this, not everyone does and it is frustrating trying to explain it.

Ive had a lot of friends travel to the UK and my sister lived and worked there for 10 years.
One thing in common to all who describe London is the time it takes to adjust to all the people.
People everywhere, elbow to elbow is how they describe it.
Tourist from there who come here have inversely the same when they come down here, comes night time everyone goes to sleep.

It has it downside like the goods issue but I do appreciate living in a large land with a small population it has many benefits as you point out.
That many people around would not suit me.

On bikes.
The lack of support for bikes is an issue here currently again with wire barriers on the freeways under the fire of bike riders and yet again the govt treating them like a road nusance rather than an economical consumer.

I got that Email copy.
Nice work.
And he has them in stock too.
Im wondering where he is.
The guy I called tells me I need to order quantity they dont sell one offs.
The moo cow I got at their head office just gave me dealers numbers and wouldnt tell me anything about what they stocked or checking.
May be because Im a local, they'd be impressed by the a UK enquiry specially the way you put it to them..
Im impressed.

Ill drop him an Email and see how we go with it, Im hoping he is here in Melb and not interstate (interstate adds 2 days to freight) , Id like to try other lenses to get the best suited and the 5.6 would be real close to the size looking at 4.8 so far.
Also good he is flexible about trying a few out that helps a lot, normally ordering things means choose widely no returns so its a bonus he will exchange it.

Thank you very much for chasing that up Ill let you know how it goes.

Cheers
Dave
05-08-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

I was just reading that Email you sent again.
Its a classy letter for sure.
:-)

Got me thinking actually, the HICAM guy interstate sells cam and sender for US$450 (sock me in the eye.)
Its too much for the avg rc punter here but they might go for a cheaper unit.
Interesting proposition on the back of that Email.

Cheers
05-08-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FlightPower
Veteran
Location: Herts UK

Good,

I'm glad we got that straight

FYI, my sister is out in Austraila for the 3rd time at present and my wife spent a year there before we were married, unfortunately she feels she's been there and got the T-shirt which pretty much explains why I have not visited myself.

Regards John N, he's in the Sydney head office and I suspect he's relatively senior there. A brief web-search for John Nowacki Ness turned up this, I think it will make you smile: http://www.ecoliving.co.nz/nzsecuri...w%20Zealand.htm

I suggest you take it easy on the first contact, give him no big surprises, just ask for the lens and sound open to developing further contact, hopefully he will come to you, your helicam speaks for itself.

Of course if you need a UK/Europe contact, you now have one of those too.

Play it to win!

Your friend,

Julian
05-08-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Your wife is mostly right, see one capitol city here youve seen them all pretty much and they just get smaller.
The rest to look out is way out in the boon docks for the adventure seeker, or bus load of adventure seekers if you get my drift..
"Outback" tour guide rates slightly above dishwasher here for job descriptions, lots of them.
Me, I love the great indoors.

I was going to take it one step at a time with John for sure.
Noted the link :-)

Yes a contact in UK would be an advantage here for sure.

Cheers
Dave
05-08-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

na
05-24-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

OK finally got a lens from NESS

The 5.7mm lens came up the same as the 4.8mm I got from the webcam.
The webcam one is no good as the optical view is not flat in it which may explain the size diff, skip the webcam idea.

I took the heli to NESS and tried a few lenses on site with help from very nice young lady, Christie

For the EOS5 the 8mm lens is fine but does cut some of the view off (about 2% on the sides.)

So I gather from all this that depending on the camera you have 6mm to 8mm will do the job.

Cheers

BTW
If anyone in Aus is after lenses do point the cam via viewfinder try here.
http://www.ness.com.au/contact.htm
Tell them its for a Helicam if need be and if they might let you try a few out to get the right one on the spot..
05-29-2003 Over year old.
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