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3D Heli Depot . JR-Spektrum . Gyro Hobbies

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Antiques or Out of Business > Cricket flying without a gyro
 
 
ccm15
Senior Heliman
Location: Lake Ariel, PA

Does anyone fly there Cricket without a gyro? Back in the day they were flown without gyros. It's a hell of a handefull but a great challenge.

One mile of road will take you one mile. One mile of runway will take you anywhere in the world.
07-15-2008 02:08 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Gyro-free for Me...

My Cricket will be without a tail gyro. I'm thinking that if I can successfully hover my nasty-@ss Du-Bro Hughes 300 with no gyro, the Cricket will be a stroll in the park. I forgot that I flew an LMH-100 with the tail gyro effectively disabled for the entire flight and had no issues controlling it. The owner of the LMH, on the other end of my trainer cord, had big issues (not surprised) but I just kept flying. I'm looking forward to the "Cricket Challenge"




HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
07-15-2008 04:01 AM
 
 
marcw
Senior Heliman
Location: Southern California

Gyros are for beginners!! :)

They had gyros for the Cricket but only a few years later into production. Funny thing was, they were marketed "especially for beginners"!

http://www.1017.org/cricket/forbeginners.pdf

Now, I propose since none of us are beginners anymore, for the Cricket challenge, we all take out our gyros !!
07-15-2008 03:56 PM
 
 
RAK402
Key Veteran
Location: Alhambra, CA

We (the group I flew with when Crickets were new) never flew them with gyros. We thought gyros were for people with "dead" left thumbs or couldn't fly. We did not fly .60 sized collective machines with gyros either. In retrospect, this seems like a pretty foolish perspective, although the gyros at the time were large plastic boxes with spinning flywheels and were not "stick preferential".

On the other hand, I wonder what we would have done if someone had given us heading hold gyros and fast tail servos-we probably would have changed our tunes real fast.

Either way, the Cricket flew great without a gyro (and will probably fly great with one).
07-15-2008 05:06 PM
 
 
wthford
Senior Heliman
Location: Monticello, Illinois

Gyro

My Cricket never had a gyro. If you can trim your helicopter, a gyro isn't neccesary. You WILL however have to fly the tail. I never had a gyro until about 5 years ago. I think it has been a great help to me as a heli pilot. Gyros are great, but not absolutely needed.
07-20-2008 07:30 PM
 
 
whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

I flew my Cricket without. At the time I had no idea what a gyro was. Fixed pitch machines without a gyro are not all that bad. The tail is much easier to handle compared to a collective machine without a gyro.

Mike
07-21-2008 02:15 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Well....

Quote 
The tail is much easier to handle compared to a collective machine without a gyro.

Not to start an argument but a collective heli with correctly mixed tail compensation will be easier to fly than fixed pitch. The key is in taking the time to determine the perfect throttle/collective to tail mix amount. Where the fixed-pitch heli loses in this battle is in the instant torque input or removal to the main rotor prior to the main and tail rotors stabilizing in RPM. Once speed is steady, the tail is also steady but it's the RPM transition with the fixed-pitch that has to be instantly corrected and adds to its difficulty.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
07-21-2008 03:05 AM
 
 
wthford
Senior Heliman
Location: Monticello, Illinois

No Problem

Actually, the question was "was there a gyro for the Cricket". The plans never called for one. Personally, I was poor when I started flying helis in 1989. The Cricket was my first. As a matter of fact, it was the only heli the local hobby shop had at the time, and it hung from the ceiling for quite some time before I bought it with my tax return then. Cricket + TX/RX = tax return in 1989. No cash for a gyro. Heck, fuel was a problem. Spare parts, blades, etc... So, I trudged on without one.

Anyway... my next chopper was given to me. It was a Kalt Baron 20. I STILL did not have a gyro. I went through two Kalt Baron 20's, a Mini Boy (mechanical mixing of collective to tail rotor), and then a Kalt Enforcer. I did not have a gyro for any of them. I found that after trimming, that only small inputs to the tail were needed to fly. No big deal.

Am I saying that we should all stop using our gyros? No. I am saying that you CAN fly without one.

I will also say that after going from the Cricket to the Baron, I was INSTANTLY surprised at the difference. I had the Cricket for about 3 years, and I wondered how I ever got as far as I did with it considering how much easier it seemed to me to control the heli with collective pitch. By the time I got the Baron, I was just getting into forward flight, and the Cricket just wanted to start climbing if you got it into forward flight. Crash.

Now that I am in FFF, I see the benefit of having a gyro. I can concentrate on working towards some more 3D stuff, and not having to worry about a wandering tail is a plus. On that note... I need a better gyro... The ole' G500 is not as solid as I want it to be, but then, I am not very patient nor have I spent a lot of time getting it dialed.

On that note... what do you think of the JR G500 gyro? My tail is NOT rock solid... will that gyro do it for me?

Cheers!!
07-21-2008 05:11 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

The G500 is a basic and very usable HH gyro. I think there's one installed in one of my heli's somewhere around here... If the setup is lacking in some detail, no gyro will perform well. What's the general problem?

IMHO that's a lot of torture, flying sans gyro. So much brain energy is dedicated to keeping the tail in tow that there's little left for flying the heli In 1989 I got my heli feet wet again after a 14 year hiatus and there was NO WAY I was going to go it gyroless and while trying to also save money, I purchased a used (abused) GMP mechanical gyro and found out after purchase that the motor was falling apart. I performed the required surgery and flew it for ten hours total without issue. Gain was set at 100% the entire time and it wasn't what one could consider powerful. But it got me air time without issues or worrying where the tail was.

Kavan made a gyro in the mid '70's, a big box that one was supposed to hard-wire to the insides of the tail servo, paralleling the feedback pot. I own two, NIB gyros and want to test one some day (in my Kavan Jet Ranger maybe?) as there's a rumor they don't work. I say they do but it's only theoretical. This gyro is older than the Cricket and could be installed if room could be found in the servo area. I never heard of anyone trying but that doesn't mean it wasn't done.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
07-21-2008 05:45 AM
 
 
wthford
Senior Heliman
Location: Monticello, Illinois

Problem?

I think I just need to play with the gain settings. Just something I haven't done as of yet. It works, but just needs to be tweaked... I think. Not sure I have setup the 8103 properly. Was looking at the instructions last night. Looks like a pretty top notch gyro. I'm going to play with it this evening and I'll let you know what happens.
07-22-2008 03:13 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

I have two JR 500 gyro's. I actually prefer the way they fly over a 401, though its not a huge difference. The JR 500 seems to give me a more consistent piro rate in wind or traveling piro's. BUT the setup differs between the two. With the JR 500 gyro you MUST use sub-trim (not trim) to correct any drift in HH mode. Here is my setup routine.

1. Mechanically setup the linkage so the tail servo is perpendicular and the tail blades are set about right when the radio is neutral and the gyro is in rate mode.
2. setup the gyro so you can switch between HH and normal/rate mode via the radio. Take off in HH mode (probably need to hold some tail to get it to hold straight) then flip to normal mode. If it drifts, flip to HH and land. Then adjust the linkage. Keep doing this until there is little drift in rate/normal mode.
3. Now take off in HH mode and note any drift (should be minimal). Land and use the subrim (not the trim) in your radio to take out the drift.

Should be a solid gyro at this point. You'll want to adjust the gain to get a solid hold but check the tail servo temp after a flight. If it's hot find out why. should be smooth linkage with no binding but minimal slop.

btw, I was thinking about cheating with my Cricket - I have a CSM-200L gyro which is a very small heat shrink wrapped gyro which could be hidden behind the servos - pot adjusted gain so i could fly it with a 4 channel radio

...yep...
07-24-2008 04:21 AM
 
 
whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

"Not to start an argument but a collective heli with correctly mixed tail compensation will be easier to fly than fixed pitch. The key is in taking the time to determine the perfect throttle/collective to tail mix amount. Where the fixed-pitch heli loses in this battle is in the instant torque input or removal to the main rotor prior to the main and tail rotors stabilizing in RPM. Once speed is steady, the tail is also steady but it's the RPM transition with the fixed-pitch that has to be instantly corrected and adds to its difficulty."

So are you are saying the instant torque change of a fixied pitch machine changing rpms on the head is more than that of a collective machine with a change of the pitch?...If so, I don't agree with you. I've flow both with and without gyros, and fixed pitch machines tail was easier to handle.

Mike
07-24-2008 04:36 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Quote 
So are you are saying the instant torque change of a fixied pitch machine changing rpms on the head is more than that of a collective machine with a change of the pitch?

Yup.

Causing a mass to change rpm through torque addition or removal makes the entire airframe react in opposition (Newton's third law: law of reciprocal actions). Collective pitch heli's, if tuned with the proper pitch and throttle curves for constant head speed and proper simultaneous tail rotor mix will be less of a tail swinger than fixed pitch. Granted, the setup to attain such perfect mixing will take time but in reality it can be done. But is it easier to just correct the tail with the fixed-pitch heli and live with it? It's up to the patients of the pilot I guess.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
07-24-2008 04:53 AM
 
 
wthford
Senior Heliman
Location: Monticello, Illinois

OMG

I had a bad experience this evening. I had two flights on a charged pack (1100 I think) in my Venture 30CP. I went up for a third this evening. Everything was fine. I went straight out about 100 yards and turned to come back. Just as I turned to come back, the tail started wagging violently. I figured that the gyro was needing adjustment. I didn't think I was going to get it back ont he ground without cracking up. I was coming in nose first, tail wagging. I managed to make it down without crashing. I let it idle on the ground, and checked my gyro sensitivity. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, so I decided to hover up and see if it still did it. I lifted the collective and NOTHING. The battery died in the heli... If I had been any farther away, I would have crashed. It totally died the moment I got it on the ground. I am guessing the reason the tail was wagging was that the servo didn't have enough speed to compensate. I have not had the tail wag on me like that before. Needless to say I about crapped my pants. I had to kill it by putting my finger over the exhaust.

I think I am in the marked for a battery power meter..... in all my years of flying this has NEVER happened to me. And, 3 flights on that battery has never been a problem either. How many flights are you guys getting on the same battery?
07-24-2008 05:36 AM
 
 
whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

Maybe the reason I disagree is because I used a 4ch airplane radio when I flew the cricket. I did not have revo or acceleration mixing at the time, so mixing it out was not an option. When I moved to a CP machine I had a radio with REVO and Acceleration mixing. All I can say is the tail swings on the CP machine were much worse than they were on my cricket.

Mike
07-24-2008 12:46 PM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

OK, but what did you have for pitch and throttle curve adjustments? Were you using a Century 7 by any chance? Its tail adjustments are as you said (Revo mix and Accel) and is ideal for fixed-pitch heli's. The throttle curve capacity was rather basic, could leave you with points in the curve that can't be tuned to perfection like high end computer-based radio systems of the very late eighties.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
07-24-2008 07:38 PM
 
 
whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

When I flew the cricket I had one of them old krinkle coated futaba tx's. The old ones with the round gimbals. I don't think it even had servo reverse. Throttle curve was mechanical, and pitch was set with a cresent wrench. So that radio alone limited what I was able to do by quite a bit. By the time I moved to the CP machines I had a heli radio. Its been so long ago that I don't remember exactly what features it had, but I think it was only revo mix in one direction from hover. It could compensate giving pitch, but not taking it away. Later on I had a first generation Futaba pcm, and it had revo both up and down from hover, and also acceleration mix. I still have that TX around here somewhere. 8G I think it was. I had the shuttle when I was 11 or 12. No help from anyone, but after I bashed it a few times I started to figure it out. I got to where I could hover and do limitled forward flight with it. Then I crashed it and put it away for a while. A few years later I got back into helis with the original blue shuttle. I learned more on that machine than probably any machine I have had since then. With the shuttle I had the mixes and a gyro. But with those old gyro's, sometimes I would forget to turn the gyro on. If I went right into FF, I would not even realize that the gyro was off. But when I went to pull back into a hover, all hell would break loose. I would then put it right back into FF and auto in so I did not have to fight the tail. Considering the sloppy POS it was, It was still a lot of fun.

Mike
07-24-2008 09:37 PM
 
 
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