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e-E-Sky Honey Bee- Lama- Belt CP- E-Smart > Hands off hover?
 
 
yellowaircraft
Senior Heliman
Location: Bodrum, Turkey

Hi guys, I just heard that it is quite possible to to hands off hover in CCPM helis by positive pitch paddle trick. You give about 10* positive pitch to flybar paddles.

Is this so?

what a man can do, another can do...
07-11-2008 10:17 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gregor99
Key Veteran
Location: Western Wa

I don't know about that. But my new thinking is hands off hover is not the goal of a perfectly setup heli. My revised view of the matter is that in a hover your swash should be perfectly level (90 degrees from the main shaft at all angles). If it drifts forward or backward, that needs to be corrected with a change in CG not an adjustment in the swash, or trim setting.

If it drifts a little to the left, that's normal and needs to be compensated with the right stick. If you adjust it out via the swash links, it the adjustment will be backwards when you go inverted. The perfect setup starts with a level swash and ends with corrections via CG and pilot.

Taking the road less traveled
07-11-2008 10:33 PM
 
 
Burlyman38
Veteran
Location: Troy,IL

That is a very good point greggor. I never thought of it that way.

TripleB

TripleB
Flying by the street light.
07-11-2008 10:41 PM
 
 
TJinGuy
Elite Veteran
Location: Socorro, NM - USA

That may work on a big heli but the King is just too small and light to counter the force of the tail. I see nothing wrong with an unlevel swash.

- Chris

Variety+spice+life=King2+Rex450+Some500
07-11-2008 10:41 PM
 
 
yellowaircraft
Senior Heliman
Location: Bodrum, Turkey

TJ. Did you answer me in your first sentence or to Gregor?

what a man can do, another can do...
07-11-2008 10:50 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TJinGuy
Elite Veteran
Location: Socorro, NM - USA

Kinda both.

- Chris

Variety+spice+life=King2+Rex450+Some500
07-11-2008 10:55 PM
 
 
shizack
Veteran
Location: Augusta, GA USA

I've tried the positive pitch trick with the HBFP and the King.

Pros: More lift; stabler hover.
Cons: MUCH more susceptible to acting like a yo-yo in any little breeze; cyclic loses lots of responsiveness.

These effects are much more pronounced with the FP, but they affect the King as well. I really recommend against it with the King, and only for "I just gotta" flying indoors with the FP or when the motor's on the way out and won't lift as well.

And 10º is a bit much. I never went beyond about 5º.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you...
07-11-2008 11:14 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gregor99
Key Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote 
That may work on a big heli but the King is just too small and light to counter the force of the tail.

Size has nothing to do with it.

Quote 
I see nothing wrong with an unlevel swash

Breaking this into two parts as there are two primary forces and two typical remedies.

Fore/Aft With our heavy tailed Esky's this is the one we are most familiar with and usually caused by poor CG. Tilting the swash forward will stabilize the heli in steady hover. However to accomplish this, the neutral pitch position of the front of the rotor has more negative pitch that it would be required with a perfect CG. When you pull back on the right stick, the front of the rotor gets some positive pitch but not as much as it would with a perfect CG. The results across then entire rotor there ends up being more net negative pitch than if the CG were perfect. As result when you pull back on the right stick you now have to apply a little collective to compensate. If you go inverted, the heli response to the tilted swash is now reversed so you have to hold the right stick back twice as much to maintain a steady hover. I didn’t make this up, it came from Slider.

Side to Side The second most common swash correction is compensating for the thrust of the tail. If done to perfection the heli will hover hands off (or close to it) with the heli tilted to the right. This looks cool on video and of course is great feeling if all your going to do hover. But since hopefully all of will eventually do more than tail in over, we can quickly outgrow this perceived perfection. The problem with this setting is that is isn’t dynamic. If we could use a static setting to compensate for tail thrust, we could all be using rate gyros, or maybe even no gyro and simply using revo mixing. As the heli moves into forward flight weathervaning reduces the amount required tail thrust. The tilted swash now causes the heli to lean to the right. When you go inverted, the tilted swash is now working opposite of what it does in the upright flight. Instead of adding a little cyclic input to correct now you have to add a lot. Even in basic slow maneuvers I’ve noticed an unpleasant interaction. As I was working on my figure 8s in the garage I notice that when turning left, I had to fight the heli. Turning right it seemed fall into the turn very easily. As I looked closer during the left hand turns, the heli was already leaning to left. I had to first get it back to center then lean it right. In the right and turns, the heli was leaning right already, so very little input was needed. Moving to more level swash made the both turns more equal and the transitions, especially on the left turns feel much more natural.

By trying to perfect the balance of the heli by tilting the swash you are only correcting for one flight condition, steady hover. In other flight conditions, the titled swash causes imbalances approximately twice as bad as the original imbalance leaving the pilot to dynamically compensate for them. I'd rather have my heli balanced for most flight conditions instead of just one. I don't spend at of time hovering these days so I care very little if I need to add a little right stick to hold a position. I spend more time turning left and right, and level swash feels more natural.

Taking the road less traveled
07-12-2008 02:10 AM
 
 
Griffin
Senior Heliman
Location: USA

I have to agree with gregor 100%. Nothing is better then a well balanced heli, with a nice level swash.
07-12-2008 02:31 AM
 
 
TJinGuy
Elite Veteran
Location: Socorro, NM - USA

Buy a bigger heli then

- Chris

Variety+spice+life=King2+Rex450+Some500
07-12-2008 03:25 AM
 
 
toolman18
Key Veteran
Location: Texas

Fender says go fly

Dont wait for me. Ill get there when i get there
07-12-2008 03:35 AM
 
 
shizack
Veteran
Location: Augusta, GA USA

Frankie say, "Relax!!"

Worf say, "It is a good day to fly."

Yoda say, "Do. Or do not. There is no try."

UFO Phil say, "Can you keep a secret?"

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you...
07-12-2008 03:51 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
toolman18
Key Veteran
Location: Texas



Dont wait for me. Ill get there when i get there
07-12-2008 03:52 AM
 
 
zaw
Veteran
Location: Lebanon, NH - USA

I had those WASP V3, FP that came with 10* of pitch out of box. They hover good in nice calm day but when wind pick up its impossible to bring them back down. if you slow the rotor speed it loose the tail, when wind stop they just drop!

BCP+CP2 mix Separates BL, DD-tail, HH //\\ HBK2 JGF 400 11T //\\ Friend's B400
07-12-2008 04:44 AM
 
 
TJinGuy
Elite Veteran
Location: Socorro, NM - USA

I see adding pitch to the paddles like this. It makes them try to run in the cleanest air possible and that forces them to run in a plane parallel to the main blades. Thus keeping the heli from wandering. I assume you can achieve the same thing by adding negative pitch to them.

- Chris

Variety+spice+life=King2+Rex450+Some500
07-12-2008 05:37 AM
 
 
shizack
Veteran
Location: Augusta, GA USA

Did that too, on the FP. As expected, completely opposite results. Less lift requiring more headspeed to lift off; slightly more tolerant of wind; just a smidge more responsive to the cyclic stick. Tended to wader a bit more.

The best results were obtained with leveling the paddles with the paddle control frame. 0º paddle pitch. Of course.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you...
07-12-2008 06:16 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TJinGuy
Elite Veteran
Location: Socorro, NM - USA

Actually thinking more about it, I bet you are right. If the main blades are pushing air down and the paddles are trying to push air up, they will loose the battle and will probably be very easy to move in the turbulence created.

Well I am off to bed.

- Chris

Variety+spice+life=King2+Rex450+Some500
07-12-2008 06:23 AM
 
 
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e-E-Sky Honey Bee- Lama- Belt CP- E-Smart > Hands off hover?
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