RunRyder - csm 420 gyro help

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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > csm 420 gyro help

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

I have this gyro on a mini titan se. I had wag, but most of it is gone now, but it seems the tail won't stay locked in very well. Can anyone help?

Man, I miss the eighties.

06-26-2008 02:31 AM

Busher
Veteran
Location: Manchester, England

First check your headspeed is on the ball, A gyro performance is only as good as the tail rotors ability to work effectively. So try upping the speed or fitting slightly bigger blades. Then move on to the tail linkage and check there is no slop and the blades can move free. Then I look for a decent servo on the rear of the heli. I use a robbe fs61bb digital, and this holds real well with the 420 or 560 micro. The low hold on the tail is also an indication of low gain in heading hold, i.e. you have reduced your gain to a point where the gyro no longer holds well? To this point I have always chose a long servo arm as the manual states and a reasonable servo, this allows me to up the gain a bit for better hold. There is also some point to increasing the acceleration gain in the gyro, but this is not available for the 420, It could however be returned to CSM and re programmed to the 420 e setting which may give you a better hold on the tail. I have since taken the 420 off my 450 se and fitted a 560 micro, to allow me to change the parameters, however this proved unneccessary after I fitted the fs61 bb22. Hopethis helps

Good luck
Busher

06-26-2008 07:57 AM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

Changed servo to 9257. Head speed is around 2500 rpms now. The carbon blades are only rated for 2500. I'm sure they could handle more. It still kicks out a little. I'm not sure why and the tail has a small bounce sometimes. I'm running out of ideas on setting this gyro. I do have it set good enough to fly on though.

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-12-2008 01:57 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

Have you done the quick trim setup ??
If you havent that is why its not holding
setup the tail linkage in normal mode so that the linkage at the servo is 90 degrees and the tail pitch slider is in the middle, then hover the heli in heading hold mode and flip between heading head and normal mode 5 times and the trim will be memorized... DONE !!!
One other thing to consider is the gyro mounting tape if your using the csm tape try to go a little stiffer and see if thats helps.
I run all CSM gyros on my machines and couldnt be happier the 420 outperforms the 401 by a long shot, plus its 15 grams lighter !

07-12-2008 02:30 PM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

The manual says to set this gyro in rate mode first. I also adjusted the travel limits through the gyro. It doesn't mention a quick trim set up in the manual. It doesn't say to put the slider int he middle either. I have the 420e. Which version do you have? Here's a link to the manual.

http://www.helihobby.com/download_files/micro420.pdf

Perhaps you can find something that I didn't. This gyro is on my last nerve and may find itself replaced by the end of the day.

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-12-2008 03:04 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

Yes it has the quick trim function so you need to set it as I explained earlier

07-12-2008 06:41 PM

Busher
Veteran
Location: Manchester, England

Check your tail linkage is not sticking anywhere on its travel, but is slop free. Lube up your tail rotor shaft and any pushrod guides. Find the centre of your servo and put the ball at about 12mm on the horn, set your arm to 90 degrees to the linkage. Set your push rod to give you about 8 degrees pitch on the heli, this will put you in the ball park for the hover set up. Set up your gain and rates as per the manual, this is important and should not be assumed. Put the heli on your bench and enter the setup mode. Run through the setup procedure setting for the usual end points, gyro sense, digital servo, etc. Then go and hover the heli in rate mode. Adjust you linkage until the heli will hover in rate mode without the drifting about. Land your heli and switch to heading hold and fly the heli in hover perform the quick trim, this helps the heading hold setting. Then if after all that you are still having probs it could be the mounting of the gyro, is it mounted on csm gyro tape and have you anchored the leads correctly if in a violent maneuver the g force moves the leads they will pull on the gyro and the tail will kick out. If all this doesn't turn up trumps for you try slightly different tail blades, or you could return the gyro to Colin to have it checked out. However a very high percentage of probs are the setup and not the gyro.

hope this helps

Good luck
Busher

07-13-2008 11:42 AM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

12 mm on a mini titan is a little much dont ya think ?

07-13-2008 01:28 PM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

The manual for the mini titan says to start at 10.5 mm. That is where I have mine set at. I also have it set up in rate mode. I'm using zeal tape to hold the gyro in place. The wires are zip tied. I'll try that quick set up, but why isn't that in the manual?

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-13-2008 01:30 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

quick setup and quick trim are two different things the zeal tape works fine thats what Im using on all my CSM gyros 3 720s and a 420

07-13-2008 01:34 PM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

okay, I meant quick trim. But why isn't that in the manual? If it is there to be used to help set up this gyro, why was it left out of the manual? I would have never heard of it, unless someone had posted it like here.

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-13-2008 01:37 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

It is in the manual, towards the end.

07-13-2008 01:40 PM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

I looked for it and found it. Thanks. I will try that this morning sometimes as I still have a fully charged battery ready and waiting.

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-13-2008 01:44 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

Let us know how it goes !

07-13-2008 01:49 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

By the way where are you from ?

07-13-2008 01:50 PM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

I live in north carolina. The club I belong to is a small club and there isn't many heli pilots in it. I have only heard of one other guy having a csm gyro there, but he hasn't installed it so, he doesn't have experience with it to help me. Besides, he doesn't have the 420e like I do.

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-13-2008 01:56 PM

steve 01
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Rapids MI

http://www.iflyhelis.com/index.html
You can also check out this site for setup help ect..

07-13-2008 02:06 PM

Busher
Veteran
Location: Manchester, England

I mentioned 12mm as that is what i set mine at initially. The idea is to get as much arm as possible, this increases the speed at which the gyro can react to the helicopters yaw. Get rid of the zeal tape and get some csm gyro tape under the gyro it makes a difference, I proved that to myself a long while back. Colin spent a lot of effort getting the right tape for the job.

Good luck
Busher

07-13-2008 02:43 PM

AltecLansing
Key Veteran
Location: Under the tire of a truck

did the quick trim set up. I still have a bounce when I try to rotate the heli in the air. I turned the gain down to get rid of it. I got rid of it, but then the tail was loose and hard to fly. Also, doing that quick trim set up byself is a pain. I did it, but it wasn't easy. I'm done with this gyro. Its time for a 401 or 770 on it. So, I'll be removing it and putting it up for sale. I had a csm 360 that took me a month to set up. I had to buy a faster tail servo for that one to work, but once set up, it was fairly nice. I ended up selling that gyro because I sold the heli. I'm sure the 420e should be just as good, but I really don't have the patience to spend another month to set it up. Perhaps someone with more experience with this gyro will buy it.

Man, I miss the eighties.

07-13-2008 04:18 PM

nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

Quote
The manual says to set this gyro in rate mode first.

You had better read it again ! Look at page 8 .

Initial flight trials
We suggest that you reduce the rudder travel adjustments in your transmitter to 80% for the first few flights until
you get used to the response of the gyro system. If you run a very high head speed or your tail servo is slower than
0.12sec/60 degrees you may wish to reduce the gyro gains to 50% for these initial tests.
Mode 1 Gain setting
First select Flight mode 1 (Smart Lock mode) and hover the helicopter. Use short small 'stabs' of rudder control to
disturb the helicopter in yaw and observe. If some tendency to oscillate is seen, slightly reduce the gyro gain. Conversely
if no tendency to oscillate is seen try increasing the gain. You are looking at this stage for the highest gain that gives no
sign of oscillation when the tail is disturbed by sudden changes in tail command.
Once this has been done you may wish to check for tail wagging in fast forward flight. Should this be observed, you
should lower the gyro gain slightly.
Once you have adjusted the mode 1 gain to your liking set your transmitter to give the same gain value for Flight mode
0. This value may be refined later but first we need to adjust the mode 0 trim with the Quick-trim procedure.

At the end of the day , it gets dark .

07-13-2008 05:12 PM

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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > csm 420 gyro help

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