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Blades, Night Flying and Painting > Help with paint and aftermarket bodies
 
 
kodiak
New Heliman
Location: Perkasie, PA - United States

Can someone tell me what aftermarket canopy will fit the QWW Bat 50? Also, what about painting? What is the process, what kind of paint does one use and where does one buy it?

Thanks,

Kodiak
06-13-2008 07:46 PM
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

I don't have the slightest idea what machine you're talking about.

As far as painting goes, it's quite involved to the uninitiated.

For plastic canopies, look at what a few pros suggest:
Arizona Heli tips
Canopy-FX.com also has a "tips" section that covers plastic canopies.

For fiberglass, see Arizona Heli's fiberglass canopy tips

Believe it or not, most of the work for a good paint job all happens before you even spray paint. It involves priming & lots and lots of sanding.

As far as paints go: This is largely dependent on your equipment. If you have a pneumatic spray gun or an airbrush, you have more options. If not, you're limited to rattle can paints. In general, it's a good idea to choose paints designed to adhere to metal or fiberglass. Automotive paints are a popular choice.

If you have proper paint spraying equipment, popular paint choices are House of Kolor (a pro-grade paint), and Auto Air Colors. Each has advantages - House of Kolor is the pro's choice in general - it dries fast, and you can get the paint job done faster. One downside (that I've been told) is that it requires prompt application of clearcoat.

Auto Air Colors is a non-toxic, water-soluble paint. Its advantage is if you goof up, you can easily remove the paint using soap, water, and a scrubbing sponge. It also doesn't require you to cover it with clearcoat right away. The disadvantage is that it takes longer to paint than with House of Kolor, and if you don't give it time to dry, you'll peel up paint when you mask out lines.

The last step is the clearcoat. This is _not_ simply clear spray paint. You need 2-part automotive urethane clearcoat. Nitro eats anything else. (Technically, it eats the urethane too, but so slowly you'd be OK as long as you clean it at the end of the day).

Clearcoat is expensive, dangerous, tricky, and unpleasent. Other things say "may" cause cancer. Clearcoat says it will cause cancer. A simple air filter isn't enough to protect yourself - you need a forced-air system - and cheap ones are $500.

As a result, a lot of modelers (myself included) just take the canopy to a pro auto paint shop, and have them apply the clearcoat - they have the equipment & expertise to give a beautiful finish without giving anybody cancer.

My own experiences with painting: The cost of materials (canopy, paint, masking materials, equipment) is pretty expensive by itself. Then you factor in time, (your time is valuable, for example), and the cost goes up even further.

My own calculations for my Synergy N9 canopy are:
Canopy: $70
Paint (3 colors, auto-air colors, 4 oz bottles): $30. Granted, you can use cheap spray-can paint for probably $15
Primer: $17
Masking materials: $5 (but you have to buy rolls of it - there's $15 worth of tape & other stuff left over)
Sanding paper: $10
My time: 10 hours (I'm lowballing the # of hours - it's probably double that). I could work minimum wage and get $65 during the same time.

So in the end, it adds up to $197 - WITHOUT the clearcoat, and without counting the hundreds of dollars spent on the air compressor and airbrush.

Custom canopy painters post their own prices.

Most charge less than what I paid to do it myself.

After doing the math, I've decided that unless you want to paint your own canopies, it's actually cheaper to just let a pro do it - and you benefit from their experience & skill.

That being said, I did enjoy painting my canopies - the feeling of accomplishment is rewarding.

For me, though, it doesn't make economic sense to do it myself. Materials alone cost more than many pro painters. That being said, it is an expensive hobby - economic sense isn't as important as having fun.


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
06-14-2008 07:41 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HelividD
Senior Heliman
Location: Auburn Hills, MI, USA

I am a basic painter, but trying to get better.

I use AutoAir colors and Nelsons clear(both waterbased). The autoair is nice because the reducer is water and also you don't have to deal with poisonous fumes and special equipment. I still spray my clear outside however, but I do spray the autoair indoors. Also, the cleanup is easy with both since they are waterbased.

Also, a good airbrush as I have recently discovered is "critical" to say the least. If your going to do it, get a good brush and a good moderately powerful compressor with a decent sized tank. Those two things I have found made all the difference in the world..

Here is the cost of my little paint jobs. I have the compressor and airbrush of course but I will include them simply for startup costs:

1. Iwata TR1 airbrush: 180.00
2. Craftsman compressor(7 gal tank) and hose kit w/quick disconnects: 190.00
3. Iwata 10 foot air hose: 25.00
4. Createx Auto Air colors: 30.00 for maybe 4 bottles(small) depending on the colors as this can vary depending on the colors you wish to use.
5. Badger frisket: 40.00 for 10 inch by 40 foot roll or you can purchase in 8.5*11 sheets and they are inkjet printable. This to be honest was a critical find for me after reading airbrushing sites and the like. It is extremely low tact, but because it is printable, it has allowed me to get away from masking tape(for the most part) and because it is printable, I can create some interesting things in photoshop to both practice with and also for the final painting. I still haven't done alot of practicing and need to get on it, but this has been tremendous.
6. Testors specal X-acto knife blades: 7.00 and extremely sharp. Great for cutting out the frisket when on the canopy. ***really no pressure on the blade is required****
7. Nelson's clearcoat and nitro fuel proofer: 15.00 for a quart. I did the auto clearcoats and to be honest, for years this has kept me from spraying. After my LHS owner told me about this stuff and I tried it, I am sold! (speaking of which, I need to go get another bottle of the clear... LOL). Like the Createx, it is water based, so no bad fumes, it turns out very nice. You do have to follow the normal sanding and finishing procedure, etc, and it is of course much cheaper than going with the say 3M, PPG, etc clears.. I like it!
8. Trex 600N blank canopy: 34.00

So the total for a complete startup(I didn't include sandpaper, but knock another 15.00 on it and your done) that is "nice" and quality:521.00.

Now as the other user stated, this of course could be all a moot point by spending the money on a custom painted canopy. I actually and my girlfriend fly the canomod canopies along with the painted ones I have done. I enjoy painting but also realize my skills are not up to the "professional" jobs that these guys/gals do. But I am getting better and one day(when I get my masking technique and patience for the layers to dry between coats... LOL), I will do a job just as great as theirs.

Depends on what you want to do though..

Every time I fly I loose more hair! LOL
06-15-2008 01:13 PM
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

The nelson's is a gloss clear, and is reasonably fuel proof - but it doesn't hold a candle to a good 2-part urethane.

There's a reason why the pros prefer the urethane clear, in spite of its long list of safety requirements.

* Polyurethane is more UV resistent
* Polyurethane is much more self-leveling - bumps & imperfections are smoothed out almost entirely, rather than simply covered a bit thicker.
* It's tougher in general - the stuff is designed to be on a hot car in broad daylight, with a hot engine underneath, yet still handle rapid temperature changes (ie. sudden rain storm, carwash) without lifting cracking, peeling, etc. And it can do this for decades.

I also have to ask where you're getting the stuff: There are no LHS's in my area that sell the stuff. Nelson Hobbies sells the stuff online $20 a pint, plus needing about $2 of cross-linker per pint. That works out to about $45 per quart, which is in the same ballpark as House of Kolor clear.

I'd much rather pick the high grade professional automotive clear over a hobby clear, especially as they cost the same (or at least, the same cost I could get it for).

Or I could just get it cleared by a professional for a few bucks; they typically throw out more clear after a big job than a canopy needs.


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
06-16-2008 12:06 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HelividD
Senior Heliman
Location: Auburn Hills, MI, USA

Ancient chinese secret. And yes, there is a reason the "pro's" use it. If I were getting paid(200-300 per canopy or even 100-150, maybe), of course I would use it also. But for an average person looking to paint a "few" canopies, what is the need? If your a painter for profit, fine, but for me and alot of the people that "tinker" or are learning, the Nelson's is fine and quite economical. I am not sure about your LHS, but as you saw, I am halfway across the country and they have an extra tax or something in your state? Maybe your LHS guy doesn't like you and is charging you more? I don't know.

And decades? I am only 34. Do you honestly think I am going to have a canopy for 10-20 years? Lets be a little realistic... I am learning constantly and am glad for a canopy to last me a season. I am not "that" good and yes, I am realistic in that I know I am going to crash. Whats the first thing to go? Expensive paint job dude..

I think your going a little over the top. The guy doesn't need to be run off or discouraged. I am one to encourage and not knock down. You never know, he, in two years could make a living by starting small. That is what life is all about, tinkering. At least for me. What is the use in spending 10 grand when you don't have to or if you don't even know if you want to paint? Painting canopies and airbrushing is something you like or you don't. Silly to spend needlessly upfront when your just putzing around. Just silly to me...

And wait! LOL Weren't you in another forum spraying clear from a can? LOL And you posted a picture of a canopy that you had flawed? Dude, did someone tell you that you had to use automotive clear to get a better job? Because(and don't go and take the picture down either)you can mess up the automotive stuff also, trust me. It's about practice just like anything including the helicopters. Painting is the same. Practice, practice, practice. Am I "Mr Autoair"? Of course not, but I enjoy what I am doing and I am learning. And much farther along than I was when I was using the PPG and my first Badger airbrush...

Also,here is the most recent one I painted..



Every time I fly I loose more hair! LOL
06-16-2008 12:52 AM
 
 
HelividDSenior Heliman - Location: Auburn Hills, MI, USA -
And here is the other I painted with the Nelsons and Autoair and my old airbrush..

Ignore, I will have to wait to upload another picture I take it.. Actually, it showed both. I am still learning runryder, so you will have to work with me..



Every time I fly I loose more hair! LOL
06-16-2008 01:29 AM
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

Quote 
Maybe your LHS guy doesn't like you and is charging you more?

No, I'm saying that no LHS in my state carries the stuff; and Nelson's own factory store charges more than twice what you're quoting - check it out: http://www.nelsonhobby.com/paint.html - prices for clear are at the bottom. And there are no Nelson dealers in my state.

Quote 
The guy doesn't need to be run off or discouraged.

I have no intention of discouraging - but I feel it necessary to give a reasonable expectation of the amount of work involved.

I'm more concerned with the kind where you get discouraged halfway in, after finding it's a lot more work and money than initially thought.

As I said - I really do like painting canopies - the fact that it costs me more to paint my own than it does to buy from Canomod hasn't kept me from painting my own canopies.

I also want to make it clear that DIY canopies should be done for the enjoyment of the task, not because it's "cheaper."


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
06-16-2008 02:06 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HelividD
Senior Heliman
Location: Auburn Hills, MI, USA

Well, I can't say on the Nelson's and the price. I will just say that that is what I paid for mine(I actually confirmed that with the gf because hey, I am human. I could make a mistake every now and then.. LOL). I will just say that maybe it will be more expensive for you... Sorry dude..

And yes, it's work, but if your lazy then your in the wrong hobby. And the pink canopy, I did that one in three hours. From start to finish. Yes, it took me longer(like 4 days of putzing and playing) with the first canopy, but that one, I didn't have the flow, and it was brand new to me. For something complex, yes, anytime you do it the first time, it is difficult, but as you get better you learn tricks. I learned and learn each time I pick up that brush.

I will use you for example and the canopy you showed on your other thread. I would never begin with something like that. It is complex to a certain extent and after all the time invested with frisketing/masking, etc, if it doesn't turn out right, then your going to be heavily discouraged. And that is what it sounds like to me from the way you replied. Nothing against you, but it does. For me, I figured I would start simple, with fades and the like.. The first canopy I did was a solid color with a stripe on it, with clear.. That was to get used to the paints, the flows, etc.. Then I did a fade. I also did some model cars just to play with the airbrush I had at the time.. Each time I used it, I learned a little more control and flow and those things minimize time. I also as goofy as it sounds, painted the back of my aquarium solid blue with autoair.. Why? to practice on large surfaces getting a nice solid color and coat..

The canopy that has the blue on it that took me a few days, honestly is about the 4th or 5th I have done.. Thats it. It took a long time because I was impatient and kept spraying thick coats. I then had to go back and start from scratch.. But I learned alot about "conceptualizing" before you begin. The pink one that only took a few hours, I didn't do the final sanding and buffing because it's my girlfriends beater canopy and she is learning on it.

The same is for masking.. The more time you spend doing something, the better you get.

Mind you, I am on my fourth airbrush and this is the most expensive and rewarding one yet. That is why I suggest to get a good brush up front. You don't need anything big like a spray gun for what we are doing, but something that atomizes well. You have to research also. For me because I have big hands, the brush has to fit "me".. And also, you have to learn your paints. These things take time and "failures". I enjoy the process and what the frisket allows, anything is possible.

Off my soap box though.. Basically you can make it as complex and time consuming or simplistic as you want. There are tricks with each paint, but those things can only be found by getting in there in one way or another and trying it. Really trying it. You may not get the results at first, but sooner or later...

And to be honest, if you read something about the paints and the surfaces and the like, you will find that some of your findings I believe may be a bit misconcieved. Especially, things with sanding and the like are going to depend on the surface your starting with. So it's not going to always be a 10 hour job and it's not always going to be a 3 hour job. It's going to depend on the skill and complexity of what your doing and also how proficient you are with what your doing just like anything else in life..

All in all, if the person wants to do it, they have to get in there, set their own curve and see how they do. But they still don't have to spend 2000 to be able to paint a nice body.. Especially for themselves on a small scale "run" or even one body a month.. A body shop or say someone that does this as a profession needs not only quality, but consistancy on a constant basis. This is what they are paid for and why the equipment they purchase will "have" to be on a higher level than that of a hobbyist or prosumer. So telling a person that doesn't even know the process that they need a "gas mask" and that "the pro's do it this way" is kind of an oversimplification of the process and reasons why..

Every time I fly I loose more hair! LOL
06-16-2008 03:23 AM
 
 
AngGrafx
Heliman
Location: Harvard, IL

Quote 
you don't have to deal with poisonous fumes

This is a common misconception with water-based paint. That since the carrier is water, you cant be harmed. Quite the contrary - since the carrier is water, it is more readily absorbed into a person's system. At minimum when you are spraying auto-air you need a respirator mask. If you can smell the fumes, its not good.

Angelo
06-16-2008 03:27 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

Quote 
This is a common misconception with water-based paint. That since the carrier is water, you cant be harmed. Quite the contrary - since the carrier is water, it is more readily absorbed into a person's system. At minimum when you are spraying auto-air you need a respirator mask. If you can smell the fumes, its not good.

Both the manual and bottle for Auto Air Colors state that respiratory protection must be worn when spraying the paint. And auto air colors bills itself as a non-toxic water-based paint.

I know the first time I used Auto Air colors, I did not use respiratory protection. I had a migraine shortly therafter. I like to think I learned my lesson.


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
06-16-2008 03:54 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
kodiak
New Heliman
Location: Perkasie, PA - United States

Wow,
Thanks for all the replies. I had no idea it was so complicated. I can't imagine that it's so involved but oh well. I may start to dabble in a little while but for now I suppose the "white" is fine. Thanks again for everyone's comments and help.

Kodiak
06-16-2008 05:08 AM
 
 
kodiak
New Heliman
Location: Perkasie, PA - United States

Lexan?

Ok, so I had kind of let the body thing go for a little while under the guise that the paint had to be fuelproof so there was so much to it. So I'm thinking last night as I'm standing at my workbench and look at my T-Maxx..... Cars use the same fuel so what gives. You can use regular spray paint on the lexan car bodies so what gives? Any help?
06-26-2008 01:11 PM
 
 
HelividD
Senior Heliman
Location: Auburn Hills, MI, USA

Hi Kodiak...

The paint for cars "should" be fuelproof also. I know the Pactra Polica(hopefully I spelled that correctly) I have always used was. But the paint indeed does need to be fuel proof.

When you speak of the paints for heli canopies, the first thing to keep in mind is the material that each body is made out of. I have used my AutoAir on my car bodies before without clear and it worked fine, it just chips without clearing, with the exception of it chips from the inside. But I have done it. But the polica lexan paints bond to and with the lexan from what I remember and kind of form "one".

The say AutoAir, HOC, etc, does not do this the same way. Therefore it has to be cleared and that forms the fuelproof to the paint job. At least that is my understanding. I also have been reading a bit more about painting and am dying to try out some new things, but I am waiting. But that is my take on it.

Every time I fly I loose more hair! LOL
06-26-2008 04:59 PM
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

There's also something to be said about the way cars are painted, and how the exhaust is routed.

IIRC, lexan car bodies are painted on the inside, and the exhaust exits outside of the shell. Exhaust and fuel residue (or at least most of it) comes in contact with the outside of the shell, meaning the lexan. The paint is safe and sound on the inside, where it doesn't get the fuel inflicted on it.

Canopies are the opposite - the paint and exhaust are on the outside, so the paint will be in contact with exhaust and fuel residue.


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
06-26-2008 06:11 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
chuckjones
New Heliman
Location: Highland Lakes, NJ - USA

pariah, I've done similar cost analysis for the trex canopy, and it breaks out to about $57 for me, including tape and clear coat. However the canopies are $9.99. I've made about 5 of them for about $200 maybe. I'm not keeping track of cost however, just having fun with it.

I wear a respirator and have the door open (to my shed that I paint next too. Never smell the crud... but can you send a link for the forced air system you're referring to? Can't find in Google.
07-08-2008 01:32 AM
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

Quote 
pariah, I've done similar cost analysis for the trex canopy, and it breaks out to about $57 for me, including tape and clear coat.

Bonus points for working out the cost for what you need! But I'm also totally with you on not really caring - I just sank some money on a decent (though not top-end) HVLP gun.

I don't plan on doing my own clear, though... not for a while, at least.

Quote 
I wear a respirator and have the door open (to my shed that I paint next too. Never smell the crud... but can you send a link for the forced air system you're referring to? Can't find in Google.

OK, two things here: Bill Ludwig's advice (Bill runs Arizona Heli - he knows how to paint a canopy!) is found in this post:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t381551p1/?p=3021132

The respirator itself is linked in that post, but I'll repost it:
http://clmcenterprises.com/hobbyair...CFSBMGgodViSJew


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
07-08-2008 02:13 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
chuckjones
New Heliman
Location: Highland Lakes, NJ - USA

Interesting. The auto paint company that sells me the clear coat said I should be fine with the 3M respirator that I have.... hmmm...

Hmmmm..... will see about getting one soon then, better safe then sorry. One thing that is definitely out of the picture, is letting it dry in the house! I'll have to leave it in my shed.
07-08-2008 03:17 AM
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

Quote 
The auto paint company that sells me the clear coat said I should be fine with the 3M respirator that I have.... hmmm...

Well, I can say mine had the same story. But they're interested in selling...

While they'd be happy to sell you the PPE, they don't want to discourage a potential sale by mentioning the cost of the PPE needed for painting.

I imagine they also rationalize that a hobbyist will only use clear occasionally - not daily as paint shop employees do. Constant, repeated exposure is no doubt worse than occasional exposure -- but playing with fire is dangerous no matter how often you do it. Better to be safe, IMHO.


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
07-08-2008 03:48 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AngGrafx
Heliman
Location: Harvard, IL

Quote 
The auto paint company that sells me the clear coat said I should be fine with the 3M respirator that I have.... hmmm

I had done some investigating on this and what I found was that its not that it doesnt filter out the bad stuff from clear, but you cant tell when the filters have lost their effectiveness. With a respirator, once you start smelling the fumes its time to change cartriges. But with isocyanates (the stuff in clearcoat), they are odorless and you cant tell when the filters arent doing their job. This is why 3m cant certify their respirator for use with isocyanates. There is information on this on the net - if I find it I'll post it.

Angelo
07-08-2008 04:18 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pariah
Senior Heliman
Location: West Valley City, UT - United States of America

Interesting note about isocyanates - at least according to Wikipedia - towering standard of accuracy that it is.

"They are toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact."

I knew you didn't want to get the stuff on your skin - but I thought it was just irritating or something. Unfortunately, it seems the stuff doesn't have to be inhaled to be harmful.

I guess that's why I keep seeing guys in bunny suits when they spray clear.


--
Helicopters & Women: The last thing I want is one whose head has a few loose screws.
07-08-2008 04:48 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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