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Radio - JR & Spektrum DSM > Some thoughts on regulators and nicads....
 
 
pchristy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nr London, England

First a bit of background: I'm a professional broadcast engineer, and have been building RC equipment since the mid 60's. Since the mid 70's I've designed and flown quite a lot of my own RC equipment, and some of it has been manufactured commercially.

I say this not to boost my ego, or to make you think that everything I say should be taken as gospel, but to assure you that I do have relevant qualifications, and do have experience to back up my opinions! But that is all they are - opinions! You may take them, or leave them!

Modern digital servos can draw an awful lot of current - in the region of AMPS! Some early ones were particularly notorious in this resepct! I once witnessed a very well known pilot write a model off due to flat nicads on the second flight following a full charge! And these were 3000mAH nicads!!!

Most modern servos now have current limiters to stop this happening, but can still draw a peak current - even if only momentarily - of several amps!

A modern helicopter may have five digital servos. Four of these (swashplate and tail) can be under extreme loads when being used for violent 3D. Even if they are not drawing maximum current all the time, the "surge" when the motor switches on can still be considerable.

Just taking the swashplate servos alone, you could be talking about a transient current of 10 amps.

This is exacerbated in the Spektrum system, because the swashplate servos (assuming eCCPM) are all driven simultaneously, rather than in rapid sequence, as when using conventional PPM/PCM.

This places an extreme demand on the connectors and switches - particularly the power lead, as this must carry the sum current of all the individual servos!

A resistance of 0.1 ohms would be enough to reduce the voltage seen by the receiver by 1 volt, assuming the figures quoted above. A dirty connector or switch could easily have an impedance this high!

Similarly, if you use a regulator, it must be able to handle sudden transients of high current without complaint!

There are two types of regulator - linear and switching. Linear regulators are very inefficient, and usually require large heat sinks to dissipate the heat. Switching regulators are very efficient, but unless they are *very* carefully designed, generate copious amounts of RF interference. To be efficient, they have to switch hard and fast, and fast edges result in large amounts of RF, which then has to be screened or suppressed somehow.

Suppression is difficult, because it is hard to distinguish between the edges caused by the switching regulator, and those caused by the very sudden high energy demands of three (or more) digital servos all kicking in at once!

Such a transient may not cause a "brown-out", but it *may* momentarily disrupt the smooth operation of the receiver!

The best way to overcome this is to make sure that there is as little as possible in the way of connectors, switches and electronics between the battery pack and the receiver.

A good quality and well maintained 1900 mAH nicad, coupled with a heavy duty switch harness should be able to supply all the current needed without the voltage sagging.

I believe that Spektrum are starting to fit heavy duty spade connectors to some of their newer receivers for the nicad connections to overcome these issues. About time! I've been wondering who would be the first to recognise that our standard 3-pin conectors are being pushed beyond the limit in modern applications!

If you are doing extreme 3D with a large model, I would also recommend topping up the batteries between flights!

If you are running a regulator, and it works for you, then fine! Carry on!

But if you are experiencing glitching problems, try replacing whatever power supply you are using with a *high-quality* 1900mAH (or so) nicad, and a matching heavy duty switch harness.

The results might well surprise you!

--
Pete
06-12-2008 07:02 PM
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

I work testing and repairing switch mode psu's , so I'm aware of the issues with switching regulators . One problem is that the amount of electrical noise will vary with load , so the system may seem to be fine during testing but under different load conditions it may go pair shaped . Given the choice , I'll always use a four cell battery pack .
The switching regulator that I fitted to my TRex 450 reduced the range test to just 6 feet with the aerial down ! A suitable ferrite and some additional capacitors returned the range to normal , but I still don't like them .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
06-12-2008 07:34 PM
 
 
pchristy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nr London, England

That point about the noise varying with load is crucial, and is, I suspect, what is catching a lot of people out!

--
Pete
06-13-2008 08:00 AM
 
 
Heliguychris
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth, West Australia

Cheers for the post Pete. Subscribed.
06-13-2008 08:08 AM
 
 
matnikon
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur-Malaysia

I like nicad too. Simple is good. I hear the Li-Ion have shelf live is about a year or two. Is that true? I have a Peerless 4800 pack thats been sitting for a while. Should I toss it out? (I dont have a charger than can measure mAh. Only the cheap Apache charger with blinky leds.)

Also with all this brownouts things cropping up, I think I will switch to sub-c packs for my Raptor 50. Are these cells any good? I believe I can easily source them here.

Sanyo KR-2300SCE NiCd, 1.2V. 2300mAh

06-13-2008 08:47 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Climax
Senior Heliman
Location: West London, United Kingdom

Another interesting thing to note about regulators is that they are typically closed loop feedback systems and under certain circumstances can briefly oscillate. This might be caused by an abrupt demand for, or the release of a large current that is outside or at the limit of the specification of the device.

Most are well behaved, but should the output oscillate, and if only for a couple of microseconds, then the brief voltage fluctuation may well be enough to reset a microprocessor. i.e. potentially cause a "brown out".

I have certainly seen this occur several times in my professional career, once in an industrial motor control scenario (fork lift truck) and once in a much more mundane cell phone application.

In my helis I am slightly wary of regulators and for that matter certain BECs. Having said that, I do have one machine with a Scott Grey Reactor which does appear to be well thought out and is over specked for my application.

My next new heli will almost certainly use one of the new Spektrum receivers and will run as much as possible directly from a 2S LiPo. It’s a shame that in these setups you still have to regulate for the tail servo. I wish the RC manufactures would hurry up and release an official range 8v servos...
06-13-2008 09:14 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pchristy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nr London, England

Matnikon: I won't pretend to be an expert on LiPo or L-ion cells, but my understanding is that the life is quite good provided they are stored correctly. I believe they should be stored with about 60-70% of a full charge - ie not fully charged, but not flat either!

This is unlike NiCADS which should be stored discharged.

The Sanyo cells you illustrated have a very good reputation. The "yellow" cells (SCEs) are ideal for receiver or transmitter duties, but are unsuitable for powering "drive" motors. For this you should use the "red" cells (SCRs).

I believe Panasonic cells are also very good.

If you don't have a cycler, I've found an old car headlamp can make a useful "load" for checking batteries. If you can measure the current draw - or work it out from the wattage of the bulb - you can calculate how long it *should* stay lit from a full charge!

Its a technique I used for years until more sophisticated chargers appeared!

Climax: Yes, that's an interesting point about feedback and oscillation! It hadn't occurred to me, but you are absolutely right! I can well imagine a 10 amp transient triggering something like that!

I too am wary of BECS, and only use them in the smallest of models.

--
Pete
06-13-2008 09:51 AM
 
 
matnikon
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur-Malaysia

pchristy,

Thanks for the reply. So I guess, I will charge my li-Ion again. Perhaps one or two flights wont be too scary. ;-) I bought it in April 2006. My how time flies.

p/s - Were you ever in that program Remote Madness or Model Mania?
06-13-2008 11:00 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Climax
Senior Heliman
Location: West London, United Kingdom

When you store Li-Ion and LiPo cells for long periods of time it is also important to keep them cool. A charged cell that is stored at too high a temperature will loose a significant amount of its capacity. I can’t quite remember the figures, but it was something like a 30% capacity loss if stored fully charged at 25 Celsius for a year.

Some people tightly wrap them in air tight bags and then put them in the fridge! The bags are to prevent/reduce condensation from forming on the batteries.
06-13-2008 12:05 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pchristy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nr London, England

Quote 
Were you ever in that program Remote Madness or Model Mania?

Gosh! I was in something like that a few years back - I can't remember what it was called. I remember trying to teach the presenter to fly a helicopter on camera! It was nerve-wracking as the camerawoman had to be in front of us and the model, which closed off my "escape route"! But we managed without incident!

My son also took part in another similar show, where they formed teams which did a relay race of cars, boats and helicopters, but I can't remember what it was called! Great fun, though!

--
Pete
06-13-2008 02:37 PM
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

I'd like to add GP cells to the "good" list . I've found that they also have more than the rated capacity and hold up well under load . At present I'm using some 3300mA GP nimh packs . They also seem to retain their charge very well when stored .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
06-13-2008 03:50 PM
 
 
matnikon
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur-Malaysia

There you go. You're a world famous celebrity flier. He he.
06-13-2008 03:50 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
turboomni
Elite Veteran
Location: 63 Rambler Down By The Dumpster

Great post pchristy. Now I am convinced never to go down that road as I have never had a problem. It's so easy with all the new products coming out these days to get swept away, then when the they encounter problems they blame the symptom not the cause.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly better than I can pilot them
06-13-2008 05:19 PM
 
 
RCHeliJim
Key Veteran
Location: Orem, UT USA

Good post for sure, and I agree that our power and servo connectors are long overdue for an update. BUT, I will continue using my Duralite regulators and packs as I have 4 years logged using them in all types of helis without a single glitch, failure, etc of any sort Thanks for the great info!



Go Fly, Have Fun!!
-Team Quick UK
-Team RCHeliMag
06-13-2008 05:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
maveric4
Senior Heliman
Location: england

Guys this is an exceptional post and the technical information is something I have been looking for.

I currently use 2000mah sub C sanyo cells but I am finding because of the high draw from as you said digital servos I am only able two manage 2 flights with the third being questionable before a recharge as I am using 480ma per 20 min flight.

I am considering buying some Tornado 4300mah sub C NiMi packs.

Do any of you know much about these will they hold up well or is there somethin much better?


pchristy In one of your posts you said that nicads should be stored flat, Why is that, I have always been told they need to be fully charged because of the memory effect.
06-13-2008 06:00 PM
 
 
2atlo8
Senior Heliman
Location: Cedar Park, TX -- USA

The thread below is a couple of years old, but contains some interesting test data on wiring/connector losses.

http://www.runryder.net/helicopter/t219094p1/

2atlo8
3D is my age....in hexadecimal.
06-13-2008 06:50 PM
 
 
rexxigpilot
Senior Heliman
Location: florida

pchristy, you ever hear of a capacitor? Filtering and buffering provided by the properly sized capacitor will eliminate any concern about peak current draw from modern servos and the resultant voltage drop caused by inefficient linear regulators. I agree that the more efficient digital variety are electrically noisy. I use a choke ring to eliminate that problem. I also agree with the issue of present day connectors being totally inadequate.

What blows me away is your advocating the use of antequated battery technology such as NiCd and NiMH. If you want to step into the modern world, please look into the Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries out now (A123 Racing). That is our future!!! Let's not go back to the dark ages of cell memory and high self discharge, please!

Sorry to be so animated, but I am just nonplussed as all hell by this post and the number of automatons who follow this bad logic! No intent to defame you in any way.
06-13-2008 07:39 PM
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

Quote 
pchristy, you ever hear of a capacitor? Filtering and buffering provided by the properly sized capacitor will eliminate any concern about peak current draw from modern servos and the resultant voltage drop caused by inefficient linear regulators.

If you had a five farad capacitor , maybe .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
06-13-2008 07:45 PM
 
 
rexxigpilot
Senior Heliman
Location: florida

nivlek, show your calculations!
06-13-2008 08:33 PM
 
 
Climax
Senior Heliman
Location: West London, United Kingdom

Nothing wrong with modern Nicads, they can certainly deliver very high currents when required...

I do like A123 cells, I’ve used these in 30C 7S flight packs and they work extremely well right down to the last electron. I love the fact that you can use all of their capacity and not have to worry about damaging them as a result of over discharge. Although when you get close to the end of the pack, and head speed starts to sag you need to land ASAP. I also like the fact that you can fast charge them at large multiples of C, in fact so much so that most chargers can actually match their maximum charge rates! They are also surprisingly tolerant of being over charged and don’t burst into flames when you do. Their only down side is that they are slightly heavier than their LiPo equivalents.

My next "8 volt" heli will be using a 2S2P A123 flight pack (OK, it’s really more like a 6.6v nominal or 7.2v peak if you take them straight off the charger).
06-13-2008 11:15 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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Radio - JR & Spektrum DSM > Some thoughts on regulators and nicads....
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