RunRyder - Thumb to Pinch

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Main Discussion > Thumb to Pinch - how long?

JAGNZ
Elite Veteran
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

BTW - I totally see the issue with speed. I have given up a ton of speed by going pinch, that is the worst part actually. Speed and reach. Pinch has increased my precision exponentially but reach and speed have suffered. I guess I have to choose which is more important to me and also if I can develop the lacking bits with either method.

I suppose, with even more practice, I could in theory get the precision with just thumbs but it would be hard. BUT, I compare it to driving with one vs. 2 hands on the steering wheel. 2 is always more stable.

Just for kicks, I just did 5 minutes on the SIM with pinch and then 5 minutes with thumbs. The speed with thumbs is noticeably higher whilst the precision with pinch is noticeably higher...hmmmm.

Oh and 2 other things I noted, with thumbs it is much easier to hit the Throttle Hold switch. I am now using a neck strap too and would use one even with thumbs....

Jason Greenwood

Fury Extreme, 2X T600N's, Trex 500, DSX9 2.4
www.3dheli.co.nz

07-17-2008 07:23 AM

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Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Are you holding the radio like Olli-Pekka pictured in his post? That's pretty much exactly how I hold my radio which I find very comfortable and easy to operate the switches between two fingers rather than with one finger on the tips of the switches

http://runryder.com/helicopter/p3592771/

07-17-2008 07:43 AM

ROSSM
Heliman
Location: UK

Anybody use a tranny tray?
Looks it may hold a tranny a bit more firmly than just a neck strap.

07-17-2008 07:47 AM

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jrett
Senior Heliman
Location: san jose, ca.

I like this topic. I got postally abused several months back when I posted my opinion that one method being better than the other is an opinion.

07-17-2008 08:01 AM

blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Hi Jason

It's really a combination of subconscious and lack of perception. Your convinced it's better therefore you are more comfortable with pinched and try harder using that style.

I fly both thumbs and forefinger and thumbs only. Years ago my friend and I used to practice precision hovering our champions by hovering up to the top of an 8 foot chain link fence and placing the front of the skid into the fence. Who ever touched the fence first lost. I never measured it but I assume we had about 2 inches clearance. Anyhow I could do this both pinched and thumbs only with comparable success. In my mind I know it does not matter I can easily compensate for the difference and can fly as well either way.

As for the lack of perception I will explain.
Even though the thumbs only method is much faster and more precise the servos and encoders are not nearly as fast. This is why some people are more comfortable with the pinched method. The pinched method being much slower then thumbs only better matches the speed of the servos.

With thumbs only you need perception to realize that you are reacting faster then the servos and need to get used to waiting for the machine to react. With the pinched method the machine seems to react at the same speed as your input thus making it appear to be more precise. Very few people ever catch that subtlety.

Try hovering with a skid in a fence and you will see exactly what I am talking about. New high speed digital servos have helped but they are still not as fast as my thumbs.

The test the USAF and the VLA conducted utilized a precession computer interface the interface and software was much faster and more precise then the human hand could ever be therefore the speed and accuracy of thumbs only was quite apparent. Hopeful someday we will have encoders and servos as fast as your thumbs.

In the real world you would never see the 250 percent increase in speed and 500 percent increase in accuracy. Why? today's most advanced hobby remote control system are not nearly that fast. The servos and digital encoders being much to slow.

07-17-2008 08:27 AM

JAGNZ
Elite Veteran
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Quote
Are you holding the radio like Olli-Pekka pictured in his post?

Yes, except I had not been sliding my fingers between the switches. It seems a bit tighter on a JR Tx. I could probably make it work though.

It is such a hard decision. Maybe it simply works better because as stated, the thumbs are too fast for the Radio gear and thus pinch works better with the equipment we use. I can't explain the why of it, only how it feels to me the pilot. There are Trade off's either way IMHO, so I have to just decide. I seem to be able to switch back and forth ok but I'd like to settle on one for good.

Bugger it, I thought I had made my mind up but the direct comparison on the SIM has made me ask some more questions...

Jason Greenwood

Fury Extreme, 2X T600N's, Trex 500, DSX9 2.4
www.3dheli.co.nz

07-17-2008 10:01 AM

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Helinutnz
Elite Veteran
Location: below 42 South

1. Jason there is more room between switches on the JR sets versus the futaba sets. Tried both in a shop. JR wins the GAP hands down.

I like pinch but am uncomfotable in some manouevres. I cannot get the range of movement in piro flips holding the tranny and rest it on my legs in front of me at the sim instead. I was going to try a tray.

I'm kinda using a combination of both methods. I like pinch for hovering. I think I am more accurate with that method and thumbs for fast moves like tic tocs and piro flips just to get a comfotable range of motion. My fingers are not made of rubber like A szabo jnr.

07-17-2008 12:24 PM

jpla010
Senior Heliman
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Hey Glen if you cant get the range try shortening your sticks, unless they are at their shortest in which case you may have to trade in for some longer fingers..

Even though I'd say I'm a pincher (

) I did notice whilst flying some maneuvers my thumbs are on top with the forefinger nearby for support. I think my hands just do whatever's comfortable at the time. If I concentrate I do notice them changing position every now and again during a flight

The thing I really like about pinching is the reduced risk (for me at least, not everyone may have this problem) of the thumbs slipping off the sticks. I feel a little bit more comfortable flying the heli lower with a tighter grip on the sticks. I don't feel like I've traded any speed by pinching because I don't need expo, run shorter sticks and could even add -ve (JR) if I needed to without sacrificing much hovering stability.

It still does seem strange that there are so many threads about converting from thumbs to pinch, but none the other way round. I'm open to the idea about it just being hype though, same way I feel about 140 ccpm..

Jonathon

07-17-2008 12:40 PM

TJinGuy
Elite Veteran
Location: Socorro, NM - USA

I have been a long time thumber. I have played countless hours of computer and console games over the last 20 years and so when it came time to control my heli, there was no other option. I have very good thumb control and did very well with my smaller faster helis. Then I got better and started to want more precision, especially on the throttle. So I have moved to pinching over the last 3 weeks. I have noticed a huge loss of movement and speed, but the added precision is a big plus.

I probably have about 25 flights pinching so far and it has become more natural to the point where I even forget I am doing it. Now I find I can fly both. If I am trying something new or flying a heli with a major change done to it, I fly thumbs. When I fly regular old stuff I pinch and do fine.

- Chris

Variety+spice+life=King2+Rex450+Protos

07-17-2008 02:40 PM

Jeff Greunke
Senior Heliman
Location: Northwest Ohio

It took me 2 attempts over the course of about half a year. I also feared that I would lose some quickness and have to learn everything all over again. I was wrong, I fly just as quick now if not quicker than I did flying with thumbs. Also, I did not have to learn everything all over again. I feel I have a lot more control now and will never go back to flying with thumbs. However having said all that, I don't think anyone can say that one is better than the other. It is a matter of personal preference. For those who desire to change just remember it will take a while to adjust and wear a neck strap

If you have a simulator start flying pinch only and don't switch back and forth. How long it will take depends on how much time you spend flying or on the sim. It took me a few months, but it was not like having to learn how to fly all over again. I spent an hour a day in the sim and then things just started clicking. Just like everything else in this hobby you have to practice, practice, practice

By the way my first attempt was a quick switch during a flight at the local club. It didn't work out very well so I don't recommend you try switching out of the blue. ('

Raptor 30, Raptor 50, Raptor 50#2, E620

07-17-2008 03:37 PM

w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

blazen,

cool that's the first objective test on thumb versus pinch I hear about. Nice that it supports my subjective findings as well

Can I somewhere get a copy of the report?

07-17-2008 06:04 PM

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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

Ross

A tray is typically used with pinchers. Seems much more popular in europe than elsewhere. IMHO a tray is useless if you fly thumbs, your hands will end up too high above the Tx making the movements much harder and less natural than necessary.

07-17-2008 06:10 PM

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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

One more remark:
IMHO most transmitters have the sticks in such an orientation that they are very un-ergonomic for thumbing. For proper pinching you need to rotate the sticks. Only the multiplex transmitters allow such rotations out of the box.

07-17-2008 06:12 PM

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