RunRyder - Scary Jazz Kontronic 55-10-32 incident

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Aerial Photography and Video > Scary Jazz Kontronic 55-10-32 incident

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

I wonder if any of you have had any voltage problem with this on your heavy AP ships?

I have a MJ2 with 12s A123 packs, 43.8v, Pletti.
Total takeoff weight is 6.5kg.
Everything have been working fine so far, but today i put on the camera mount, which is another 1.5kg so now its total of 8kg.

I took it up to about 250ft, pretty slowly it climbed up there (30-60 secs)
Took a couple of snaps, then descended pretty fast, but not that fast, same speed down as up i guess, stopped 6 feet of the ground hovering, then suddenly the ESC disconnected, luckily i managed to land it without tipping over to the side.
Down on the ground, no chance to fire it up again, the red led on the jazz blinked with 1 sec intervals.
Had to reconnect the main battery to get it alive again.

I have heard there have been issues with this since it operates on the upper voltage limit, never experienced it myself until now.

The temp on the ESC was measured to 58degr right after landing.
Could the long descent have been overloading the ESC so it overheated and disconnected?
Anyone now more about this?

Should i go for a Schulze instead?

And i also realized that i need a camera that can shoot on 400 iso without graining to get sharp pictures, it was dawning now, but still

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-01-2008 09:36 PM

HOMEPAGE

IKA photo
Senior Heliman
Location: Honolulu, HI

Probably something with the cell count feature. I dont think the Jazz likes A123. I dont have any experience with A123 tho, so hopefully somebody else will chime in.

:edit:
Okay, I was wrong, thanks everyone for correcting me

06-01-2008 10:15 PM

tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

Never had a jazz problem on 10S even flying at 22lbs and with 810 Vblades which is the setup which produces the most power consumption on the maxi.

You can switch to the powerjazz if it makes you feel better.

Tabb

06-01-2008 10:20 PM

HOMEPAGE

HawkEyeMedia
Senior Heliman
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

I run 12S2P A123 packs with the Jazz 55-10-32 and the Actro 32-4. The only issue I've had was once with a flying weight of 10kg, I had the esc go into thermal shut down. I've since modified the esc by adding a heat sink and putting two 1" diameter cooling holes in the canopy right over the esc.

The thermal shut down will reduce the power by 50% and then slowly decay to zero over 30 seconds. It doesn't sound like yours went into an overtemp condition since it suddenly quit.

Mark LaBoyteaux
HawkEyeMedia.com

06-01-2008 10:26 PM

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daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

Mark, it COULD be like you describe, thermal shutdown, it can sometimes be difficult to hear if the engine runs or if it just the sound from the gears, so it could be ut slowed down... What do you think about the temp around 60 degr?

Remember, i probably had about 2-4 minutes of continuously climbing and descending in hover mode, could that overload the system more than regular flying?

Also, haven the Schulze got a watercooled ESC as well?
Think i will make a cooling solution no matter what esc i have or use.

Do you have a pic of the heat zink you use? where did you get it?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-01-2008 10:42 PM

HOMEPAGE

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

Hi again, i read in the manual that led blinking one time indicates under voltage disconnection of 0.8v/cell reached.

I have A23 cells, could it be that one of the cell has dropped below that after the rapid descent?
Could it also might happen if the cells havent been balanced properly, or doesnt this affect it all?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-02-2008 12:40 AM

HOMEPAGE

rerazor
Elite Veteran
Location: Mich.

Whats the voltage of each cell?

06-02-2008 03:10 AM

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

3.3v

Anybody know what suits A123 cells best, Powerjazz or Schultze?

After a quick google, i found that the Powerjazz might be the best bargain, nice cooling feature, anyone concur?

There are only one model of Powerjazz, right?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-02-2008 06:58 AM

HOMEPAGE

Griffo
Senior Heliman
Location: Canberra, Australia

I was running A123's with my 55-10-32 before going with Lipos, although I was only on 8S. Didn't have any probs whatsoever.

I take it that all cells are balance and cell connections are all solid?

If you want to upgrade I'd go with the PowerJazz.

06-02-2008 08:23 AM

fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

I run the same pack and ESC setup on my J2 and never had any issues like what you described

It sounds like either a faulty Jazz or a bad connection to me. Inspect your solder joints on the ESC.

Are you using a wattmeter in flight - It can tell you the minimum voltage reached and the peak current draw. 8kg may have you up there near the limit of what the jazz can handle but without a wattmeter there is no way to know for sure.

The HV Jive from Kontronik is due out any day now and might be a better alternative than the powerjazz. The powerjazz is also a good option. For both of these ensure you also purchase the program card.

12s A123 is similar to 10s lipo. Alot of the guys lifting heavier loads are on 12s Lipo so your slightly lower voltage will cause higher current for the same power output. As already suggested adding a heatsink to the ESC may be a good idea in any case. Here is an example:

http://www.lf-technik.de/shop/produ...er-for-ESC.html

I can't advise enough the addition of a wattmeter (one which shows peak amps). Its the only sure fire way to know what is going on in the power train and is a relatively cheap diagnostics aid.

FYI The ESC does not care if you run lipo, life or whatever. The 55-10-32 can handle 42volts and can deliver 55amps continuously. So unless as mentioned earlier your current draw exceeds the limits then the problem lies elsewhere i.e faulty ESC or faulty connection.

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus

06-02-2008 01:19 PM

fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

I was just reading the manual and trying to see what was meant by .8v/cell

I think the .8v refers to the NiXX type cell (As in the 32 part of the jazz identifier)
I assume the Jazz determines cell count from the pack voltage measured when the pack is first connected. In your case that could be as much as 43.8volts

43.8/1.4= 31.2 NiXX cells or 31 for convenience

31 x .8 = 24.8volts (voltage at which the undervoltage disconnection will occour.

or in your case just over 2volts per LiFe cell. Even a fully depleted A123 pack will hold a higher voltage than that so im thinking a bad connection.

This could be a completely wrong interpretation of the error message so if anyone can shed more light on this please do so.

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus

06-02-2008 01:44 PM

cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

I doubt that it's the ESC, since many people here (including myself) have been running similar setups on it without any issues. I would suspect the flight packs first. Check each of your cells cerefully. Make sure you don't have any popped cells, and check voltages. If you aren't balancing, this is a very likely problem. People say you don't have to balance A123's, but I beg to differ. I have had issues with cells going bad because of this.

06-02-2008 05:18 PM

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

Okay, thanks for the advices.

At first i thought the pack already was empty after 7 minute flight, i then measured it to be 39v, so something else must have caused it...

Fergus, ive ordered the Powerjazz today from Revolution, do i have to have the program card, is it dificult to set up without it?
Do i need a heat zink then when the powerjazz has both that and a fan?

Which wattmeter do you use Fergus?

By the way, i bought a Kipor gas aggregat today, 1000w, it can power my Mastech at 17 amps charging, thats nice out in the field, fly, charge, fly charge as long as you have gas enough for the aggregat

cwd10, yes, im balancing every 5th charging or so with a TP 210, as suggested from Tanic packs.

The only way to check a bad solder is to resolder it again, or?

I bought a Spartan Lipoguard G4 today, it has a very bright led that indicates when the average programmed cell drops below a certain amount.

Anyone using it? Suggestions on what cell voltage i should program it to warn at?

My packs usually ends up at 35-36v when empty. 2.9v per cell, is that to much or to little? I can program it with 0.1v intervals per cell.

Anyway, advice me if you can

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-02-2008 09:57 PM

HOMEPAGE

fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

A123 are not damaged from being depleted fully so no need for a monitor. In fact they hold there voltage right to the last few seconds then just dump so a voltage monitor will be next to useless. Sell the G4 or cancel before they ship it

Time your flights in the hover and know when the dump comes then set your timer to give you time to land.

I have used several wattmeters. The 'inspector' is the best I have found. It will show peak amps and also show the mAh taken from the pack during the flight. (similar device to the wattmeter you have on the mastech charge lead but it also shows peak amps).

https://www.tanicpacks.com/product_...60c114b20ac7197

(I have not found a European supplier)

Yes- You will need the program card for the powerjazz.

You could also look at the 'two meter' from Bantam or the align tester. You can hook it up to the balance leads and read of each cell voltage so you will know if you have a bad cell. It can be used to compliment the 210 as it shows each cell voltage on screen. You could still use the 210 for balancing but this is a handy way to check for a problem.

http://www.realraptors.co.uk/shop/i...roducts_id=4367

EDIT: I am not sure if the Align tester works with LiFe (A123) but I can confirm that the Bantem two meter does.

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus

06-02-2008 10:35 PM

daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

I got the G4 for 20$ and have it here

Anyway, it starts blinking faster the closer to the desired alarm value it gets, it also starts blinking if a sudden drop occur after a heavy power consumption or manouver, so i thought i could use it as a visual backup device in addition to the timer itself so i can see whats going on up there if some unexpected things happen to the power.

Im going for a eagletree system later, but for now i think this could be a short term sollution...

And by the way, the "inspector" is also the one Brian included with my packs last year, i use it with the Mastech, but he soldered it so it also can be use for inflight inspection, but i think i will have another separate for that purpose.

In what mode do you read the min voltage, and how low is a low value to be worried about?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-02-2008 10:57 PM

HOMEPAGE

fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Daytonabeach,

I forgot to mention that you will not need aditional cooling for the Powerjazz. A buddy of mine is pushing one through some extreme 3d in a logo600 and hitting over 100amp peaks without any problems

You will connect the wattmeter in reverse to its current configuration on the mastech. i.e with the battery at the source side and the esc on the other.

After you land just remove the canopy and use the button to scroll through the values displayed on the screen. (this must be done before you disconnect the flight battery)

Minimum voltage is not really a concern for you as A123 cells are not damaged below any critical voltage. It is handy for lipo users to see if during any high load situation the voltage dropped to a level which could damage the cells.

The two functions most useful for your application will be peak amps and mAh consumed.

The peak amps will tell you if the jazz 55-10-32 was exceeding its current rating. (wont be a problem with the powerjazz

)

The mAh value will tell you how much juice was taken from the flightpack. So for the situation you describe above you will not have to wonder if the seven minute flight had drained the packs as the answer will be there to see.

As I said before it helps to give a clearer picture of what is going on and how the system is performing.

Regards

Fergus

P.S You could drop user 'Angelos' of spartan RC a PM about the G4 to check but I do not think it will work for A123. Your packs will hold there voltage even under load (within reason) and will only drop about 30 seconds before the pack is empty. If you have to wait for that situation to develop with a camera ship you are living to close to the edge anyway and should really be landing before this happens to avoid an auto with a fully loaded heli. The G4 will not help the situation as it will only come on solid with 30seconds or so left. If you set its limit any higher then I think it will be on solid red for most of the flight.

I have one in my eShuttle running 5s lipo and find it great for use in lipo setups though .

Regards

Fergus

06-03-2008 01:38 PM

rotoryrob
Veteran
Location: Auburn WA

Eagletree will do you good. That is what I use and have had the same problem as you describe. Mine was battery related voltage dropped too far. but didn't see it until I had a way to monitor it. Sometimes I would only get 3 min before the motor would cut to half power and then wind down. Always had enough time to get it down safe. So what I do now is run it for 3 minutes then check how many mahs,amps and voltage was used during flight. I have had to throw away 3 batts already because I was only getting about 70% out of them. The nice thing about Eagletree is that it keeps a log and you can see the deterieration of the batt.

Rotoryrob
WWW.Roto-Cam.com

06-03-2008 07:14 PM

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daytonabeach
Key Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

rotoryrob, what ESC do you have, and what batteries?

Yea the eagletree looks nice, then you can test and read on the ground how it reacts to heavy manoeuvres in the air, and see how you close you are to the edge, or how far you can go, or not should go

Ive been going through the whole system now, cant find any lose solder or plugs, so it has to be a thermal, or simply a defect esc that is near the end.

The powerjazz should arrive within a day or two...

By the way some of you describe your experiences, its likely i had a thermal shutdown, cause if the battery plug was loose, i guess it would power itself up again when touching the cables, but since i had to reconnect the power batteries, i guess its likely the esc failed and nothing else.

Remember, that was also the first flight with another 1.5kg of camera mount, so i guess a hard airbrake with all that weight could push something to the edge, especially since its already operating so close to the recommended voltage as it does...

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

06-03-2008 10:05 PM

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Aerial Photography and Video > Scary Jazz Kontronic 55-10-32 incident

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