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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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Audacity Models Pantera 50 - Tiger 50 > reverse rotaion on pantera
 
 
reaper31
Senior Heliman
Location: denver, CO, usa

hey guys if you had alreadt replied to this a few days back im sorry im posting it again, but i did not have a chance to check any replies before the system crashed the other day. so here is my question again... could the rotation on the main rotor be reversed to match the full scale subjefct im working on? and how would i go about reversing the one way bearing?
05-29-2008 07:16 AM
 
 
Mr.HillBilly
Senior Heliman
Location: Salesville, OH - USA

If you flip the one way in the main gear and clutch you should be ready to go.

I do not think you will get full power out of the motor running it backwards, not sure how much you would loose but you could give it a try. I have a TT36 that likes to run backwards but it does not sound very strong. (It would be running forward then just start to run backwards and down I come. )
05-29-2008 01:24 PM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Engine Rotation....

Sure, the autorotation clutch can be flipped to let the main shaft receive torque to rotate the head counter-clockwise but there are no .50 engines designed for such use.

With the availability of the "Big-Block Conversion" kit, one may be able to locate a .61 engine with reversed rotation but I can't think of where you'd find one off-the-shelf currently. The other issue here is cooling since the Pantera fan/cooling shroud is optimized for normal fan rotation for best air movement.

If you convert to E-Power, you have much better options for power systems and cooling won't have to hold you back.

Maybe change your scale subject to a heli with clockwise rotation.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-29-2008 07:22 PM
 
 
Mr.HillBilly
Senior Heliman
Location: Salesville, OH - USA

Good catch, I forgot about the fan, that would cause some major issues.
05-29-2008 08:39 PM
 
 
reaper31
Senior Heliman
Location: denver, CO, usa

ok i guess i will leave it the way it is, looks like i might do more harm then good, but on question though, i thought two stroke engines could be started both ways?
05-29-2008 11:08 PM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Going both ways...

The rotational running direction depends on the intake porting timing. Most 2 strokes for model aircraft have a unidirectional, asymmetrical intake timing, meaning the period of induction is optimized to draw the greatest 'gulp' of fuel/air mix in one revolution of the crankshaft in one direction only. Examples of this type engine are ones with a rotary valve intake system, commonly through a port drilled through the crankshaft or via a rotating disk valve in the rear of the crankcase. This optimized intake timing is completely wrong for the strong air/fuel draw if rotated in reverse. Yes, some engines that are timed "wild" (very late closing intake timing) can run in reverse if conditions are right but their torque is low and can't easily sustain operation.

Other engines with symmetrical intake timing, reed valve and piston-port are key examples, will run equably well both directions as long as there's no issues with ignition timing. Glow or diesel ignition is symmetrical; spark ignition is not. It's easy to make the ignition timing work for reversed rotation if the means of triggering the spark are via an outside trigger sensor but if the trigger is part of a flywheel magneto system, reversing can be problematic.

Hope this helps.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-30-2008 12:40 AM
 
 
MaxAdventure
Senior Heliman
Location: Boulder, Colorado

Depends on the crank port timing. Here is OS Max's answer:
http://www.osengines.com/faq/product-faq.html#q84
intrigued, I searched further and found this:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225057
of course the OS engines have a one piece case, and don't allow this trick, perhaps TT, YS, ? I don't know those engines.
looks like some manufactures offer the option:
http://www.foxmanufacturing.com/ind...roducts_id=1006
you would just have to run down a good engine for your project. My thought is to contact a machine shop to create a reverse rotation crank based on the stock crank. I know in the RC boat world there are a lot of custom engine makers that might be up for the job. You'd probably want to do a batch job and get some other scale builders to be interested, so it's worth their while.

-da

-da (Max)
AMA 198798
issues? I have subscriptions...
05-30-2008 12:58 AM
 
 
billm
Key Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

Never tried it. Silly question.
Would you have to change the rotation of the tail rotor or just rev the gyro?

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic
05-30-2008 02:18 AM
 
 
reaper31
Senior Heliman
Location: denver, CO, usa

well as far as the tail goes i was going to turn it 180* to the correct scale side cuz i think if you just turn it around and not reverse the main rotor it looses efficiency. but i do plan on useing a 4 blade tail rotor so i might make up the loss with the extra blades.
05-30-2008 03:55 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Impractical Options...

Reversing the engine's rotation by rotating the intake portion of the crankcase only works when -

#1: The case front is a separate, bolt-on component (Enya, early OS 61, some Supertigre, Webra)

2#: When used on a vehicle that allows the physical configuration of the carb and crankcase without obstruction (airplane is the best example). May run into obstructions in the typical heli frame but maybe not. Would require some thought beforehand. Throttle arm to servo link would be interesting...

Remember what I said about the cooling system - The shape of the shroud is optimized for a fan spinning counterclockwise. You don't need compromised cooling, especially in a scale heli.

As to the tail rotor losing effectiveness in a model if the blades go down with the wash - Nonsense. All model heli's have tail thrust in great surplus in comparison to full scale except for my ULSRS heli (600rpm main rotor) and some of the Fenestron tail scalers. Those ducted fan tails aren't in the direct downwash of the main rotor anyway so lets leave them out (so why did I bring them up? ) And with a belt drive tail rotor, reversing it is soooo easy, just flip the belt!


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-30-2008 05:10 PM
 
 
reaper31
Senior Heliman
Location: denver, CO, usa

good deal then, i will just reverse the tail and not worry about it then.
05-30-2008 09:22 PM
 
 
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Audacity Models Pantera 50 - Tiger 50 > reverse rotaion on pantera
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