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Fast Lad Performance . Ace Hobby . Esprit Model

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Main Discussion > Finless Bobs tail setup.
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

With the servo set up with the slider in the center,and the travel adjusted for equal travel in rate mode with the 401 in a trex,the heli wont hover without drifting unless you adjust the pushrod.When change the pushrod lenght you will no longer have equal travel in both directions. The 601 or 611 ben uses is different,has seperate adjutments for both sides of the travel adjust. If you adjust the pushrod with the 401 for no drift in rate mode on the Trex,you will no longer have equal travel so how you have max performance.
05-27-2008 11:11 PM
 
 
SkyWarp
Senior Heliman
Location: Planet Earth

Quote 
f finless bob told people... you could do piroflips if you stapled your d#ck to your forehead

That's a big d#ck if you can pull that off. Even if you could, for arguement sake, I bet you can get allot of peoples attention as well. What i'm saying is, for some aparent reason, he has the attention of allot of people so give the man a little credit.


Century Swift-
Anticipating a crash is worse than the crash itself.
05-27-2008 11:12 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

Please dont think I'm a finless sheep. I knew about this long before he was making videos.

Brovic since you seem so incensed over the subjet let me at least arm you with the proper explanation.

A servo output is non-linear. That is, you get more result at the control surface when the servo wheel is near center than you do when the servo wheel moving off of center. The farther off center the less movement you get for a given amount of servo rotation. This means the gyro needs a smaller (albiet not much) movement of the servo for a given correction when the servo wheel is centered then when its not.

So....the object of a rate mode adjustment is to "optimize" our linkage so the gyro and servo have to do the least amount of work. Works great on bigger helicopters which is what the 401 was designed for.

So what is the downside? Well on these little helicopters with limited pitch throw, to get a rate mode setup you are running the gyro limit quite low so it doesn't bind on one side. You loose gyro resolution, as well as piro authority. If you have a gyro where you can adjust the end points individually its no big deal. But with a 401, even with a very short servo arm, you end up giving the gyro a very limited amount of throw to work with.

If you do it the way I'm describing, and the way Bob advocates, you end up with better piro rates, and better gyro resolution at the expense of using rate mode.

What else? The rate mode setup is only going to get you "close enough" anyhow. Why? Because it only applies to the pitch and power settings that you used when you made the adjustment. Any changes such as switching to idle up or changing collective pitch, (this is why old gyros need revo mixing) change the torque and hence the tail rotor setting so you might not be flying around with the servo perfectly centered anyway!

Bottom line, both ways work. They work for different reasons. But please don't try to tell me my way doesn't work when you haven't tried it.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-27-2008 11:14 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

heres my whole problem with this......just because it "works" doesn't make it right....if you were helping someone set up a new heli....and all the servos were moving in the right direction EXCEPT the swash was moving up for postive pitch and you need it to move down...would you go back and reverse all the necessary servos and do it correctly...or would you tell him to run his pitch curves backwards???you can do it that way,it works..is it right?????tell him to run his idle up at 100-75-50-25-0..it will get the job done......or should you tell him the right way to fix the problem???

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 11:22 PM
 
 
Funky Trex
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, OH - USA

Quote 
heres my whole problem with this......just because it "works" doesn't make it right....if you were helping someone set up a new heli....and all the servos were moving in the right direction EXCEPT the swash was moving up for postive pitch and you need it to move down...would you go back and reverse all the necessary servos and do it correctly...or would you tell him to run his pitch curves backwards???you can do it that way,it works..is it right?????tell him to run his idle up at 100-75-50-25-0..it will get the job done......or should you tell him the right way to fix the problem???

I wouldn't reverse the servos, I would reverse the pitch value in the swash menu

So, which way is correct, yours or mine
05-27-2008 11:23 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

ok...you are correct...I was thinking faster than I can type.......would you set the pitch in the swash menu to the opposite value...or would you tell him to run his curves backwards...they both work...they both do the same thing....which is the CORRECT way??

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 11:28 PM
 
 
JetFire
Key Veteran
Location: The Golden STATE

Barracuda,
Nicely put. Great explaination.


Trex600N Pro
Kinetic 50
Futaba 7C2.4

-The ONLY way you fail is when you quit.-
05-27-2008 11:30 PM
 
 
Brovic777
Elite Veteran
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Quote 
I ditched the 401 a long time ago for the logitec...best move I ever made

I got the Hitec version that I don't need anymore if your interested!!

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t433801p1/

Killer Beam E4 450
Check out my HD Gallery
05-27-2008 11:31 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

I saw that in the classifieds...where were you last week..I like the logitec so much I just bought a brand new 5000 w servo......awesome on the MT...by the way it said align on the box but the gyro/servo are the hitec hg5000....align didn't even bother to re-sticker it

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 11:33 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

Quote 
But please don't try to tell me my way doesn't work when you haven't tried it.

suppose we have tried it that way several times and it did not work???

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 11:34 PM
 
 
Funky Trex
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, OH - USA

Quote 
suppose we have tried it that way several times and it did not work???

Then I would check your setups. I have helped set up and owned enough 401s to know it works (including a Mini Titan w/401).

Quote 
and NOT ONCE did I ever see any mention of the set up technique where you center the slider put it in HH and go....why is that??????????????

Quote 
then why do 0...yes 0 manufacturers...even acknowledge this technique...what do you know that the worlds largest gyro maker(and every other one for that matter)(futaba)does not know???

The Solid-G... The instructions say to center the servo with equal travel in both directions Works great too!!
05-28-2008 12:02 AM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

Quote 
The Solid-G... The instructions say to center the servo with equal travel in both directions Works great too!!

this gyro I am not familiar with, which is why I did not mention it...but if I remember what I read...it does not even have a rate mode...correct???

and no one has answered my question....would you change the swash menu..or reverse the pitch curve...the answer is obvious..you'd do it the correct way....so why not teach people the correct way to set up 90% of most gyros

and there is nothing wrong with my set up..the heli flies perfectly..if it was one heli,I might think that, but this was different helis(drifting problem)...if it works for some people and not all...why bother...set it up the right way first

this discussion will go on forever...just like nitro/electric....t/rex mini titan.......blonde/brunette/redhead.......whatever makes you happy

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-28-2008 12:54 AM
 
 
Girard Ibanez
Senior Heliman
Location: Tucson, Arizona (formally from Guam)

Good One


Quote 
.... Raptors sling tail blades (sorry Gerald I had to)

LOL


So what happens when you change rpm/head speed. Do you redial the gyro back to mechanical / rate mode? More head speed more torque and vice versa.

Also, with belt driven tail, do you redial the gyro mechanically as the temperature changes? Hot expands, cold contracts. In other words, if you move the boom to make the correct belt tension provide the tail servo is not mounted on the tail boom.

As for me, HH mode all the way and "Equal Throw Method".


I HOVER around the field and my X to be HOOVERS around the house.
MyRaptor.net Guam USA
05-28-2008 01:03 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Sun Nuclear
Senior Heliman
Location: Plymouth Minnesota

FWIW, the JR 770 gyro instructions don't say anything about setting it up in rate mode, just adjust the travel pot so there's no binding in either direction, set you gain and fly.
05-28-2008 01:46 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Girard Ibanez
Senior Heliman
Location: Tucson, Arizona (formally from Guam)

Food for thought:

Since I can't comment regarding the latest gyros, do they have both Rate and HH mode? Or are we seeing only HH mode?

My thoughts (flame on) when HH mode was develop (CSM Collin Mills), pilots were using Rate mode gyros. Introductory to this new technology incorporated both functions as a preference.

Pilots learned the advantage of HH mode and its capabilities. Depending on style / manuever of flying, some preferred it in rate mode verse HH mode and vice versa.

Switching from Rate to HH mode and vice versa meant that the mechanical system be trim to offset the torque maintaining a stable hover in Rate or HH mode.

Todays flying styles are done mainly in HH mode. So perhaps will see Rate mode in Gyros fading out. (Not sure but that's my opinion)

Given the above, manufacturers provide instructions to guide the user on the proper setup of their product. There are many ways we (field engineers) can do to achieve the optimum setup. Is it the right / proper way?

Only you can decide what method works best for you.


I HOVER around the field and my X to be HOOVERS around the house.
MyRaptor.net Guam USA
05-28-2008 01:59 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
That's a big d#ck if you can pull that off. Even if you could, for arguement sake, I bet you can get allot of peoples attention as well. What i'm saying is, for some aparent reason, he has the attention of allot of people so give the man a little credit.
Thts all he gets from me,very little credit.His set up's are very very basic and some of the info in his video's are incorrect.
05-28-2008 10:08 AM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
Since I can't comment regarding the latest gyros, do they have both Rate and HH mode? Or are we seeing only HH mode?
Curtis's solid G doesn't have rate mode.There is a point in the set up where the gyro centers the servo and you adjust eveything to be 90 degrees and the the pitch slider centered. On the Trex heli's when the pitch slider is centered there is 0 pitch in the tail blades.
My take on the futaba instructions to set up rate mode first is they are assuming you are going to fly in that mode also. JR doesnt suggest you set up rate mode first like Futaba,but it would be the same procedure if you were going to use rate mode.
05-28-2008 10:20 AM
 
 
Richardmid1
Veteran
Location: Leeds, England

I think the Gyro manufacturers asume we are using them on helicopters with symetrical throws even when the tail blades are at hovering pitch.

Eat, sleep, 3D, crash, repair, repeat...
05-28-2008 10:23 AM
 
 
jester4
Key Veteran
Location: Brampton, Ontario

A little late in the debate but I'll thrown in my .02:

I'm using a 401 in my 450, and did not set it up in rate mode. Center the slider and make sure you can get at least 80 on the travel pot (move the ball 'till you do), and fly. Holds solid for everything I can throw at it except maybe fast backwards with heavy collective (holds fast backwards fine if I'm gentle on the collective).

I think the instructions for rate mode set-up are fine if you fly in rate mode, otherwise don't bother. I can't see how rate mode setup can solve gyro problems?


EDIT: I forgot that I am running the chinese tail mod on mine, so that might be why mine works well......

NO SOUP FOR YOU!!
05-28-2008 02:15 PM
 
 
nocontrol1
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, FL, USA

I'm no expert! That said... here's what keeps rattling around in my little brain.
Isn't there always a certain amount of offset required to hold the tail? The amount changes with torque, but there is always some. That point of offset at a given moment is what the heli considers to be the neutral point regardless of the slider position. So is it really possible to get equal effective throw amounts unless the slider is designed with an offset built in?

There, the rattle stopped!

$.02

Rob D.
05-28-2008 02:25 PM
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Main Discussion > Finless Bobs tail setup.
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