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CanoMod . Futaba-RC . A Main Hobbies

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Main Discussion > Finless Bobs tail setup.
 
 
JetFire
Key Veteran
Location: The Golden STATE

Quote 
And then what happens should you have gyro problems? Switch to normal and start spinning.

Hit that switch and Auto! This is practical in all levels. Even if you don’t know how, it’s definitely worth the try at this point or you can just watch your heli take the plunge.


Trex600N Pro
Kinetic 50
Futaba 7C2.4

-The ONLY way you fail is when you quit.-
05-27-2008 09:43 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

To put my 2c worth here:

The proper way to setup a 401 is trimming for no drift in rate mode then flip to HH mode. Because of the design of the Trex-450 tail if you do this you will seriously affect the amount of throw you can get using a 401 gyro on the Trex. The *workaround* is to setup the Trex-450 tail with the tail slider centered at the same time the gyro and tail servo are centered.

I like using the Logictech gyro because it allows separate left/right adjustments - a better workaround for the design limitation on the Trex.

Also as far as throttle hold for a recovery, remember these are driven tails. So if your gyro or servo fails even if you hit throttle hold your tail will spin out of control. TH saves you in the case where your tail stop spinning but not in a case where it keeps spinning and no control of the pitch. The ONE failure advantage that a non-driven tail has is a failed gyro or servo is possibly a recoverable situation where you need to auto an uncontrolled piro with the driven tail.

...yep...
05-27-2008 09:43 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

True that. It depends on what fails.

Quote 
Yea, you can use it like that, but the proper way to set it up is in rate mode.

This way you get the maximum and most accurate holding from the gyro when flying in HH mode.

Please tell me why you think this is the case.

Hint: if "i read it on runryder" is your argument I should tell you that I've been fooling with control systems and avionics for most of my adult life


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-27-2008 09:48 PM
 
 
SkyWarp
Senior Heliman
Location: Planet Earth

Quote 
if you hit throttle hold your tail will spin out of control.

I'd auto the same choice as Zman. You think you have a problem with the piro in auto... try handling the same situation under power.


Century Swift-
Anticipating a crash is worse than the crash itself.
05-27-2008 09:49 PM
 
 
Richardmid1
Veteran
Location: Leeds, England

If you plan on flying in rate mode then yes it does need machanically setting with offset but if like me you only fly in HH then set the blades to 0 pitch so you get maximum and equal throws and off you go! Doing this does not reduce the life of the tail servo, vibration, too high gain, binding, too long or short servo arm and slop in the mechanism reduce servo life.

Eat, sleep, 3D, crash, repair, repeat...
05-27-2008 10:12 PM
 
 
JetFire
Key Veteran
Location: The Golden STATE

Back track a little,
Quote 
however I am supprised that he has not set it up with some offset.

Offset? I've never had to deal with it on all my helis. The 401 is rock solid. I never really played with micros that much and perhaps that explains why. Maybe this is a problem with smaller machines.

Don't know.


Trex600N Pro
Kinetic 50
Futaba 7C2.4

-The ONLY way you fail is when you quit.-
05-27-2008 10:15 PM
 
 
Wyn
Senior Heliman
Location: Oregon, USA

Hate to get in the middle of these debates, but I'll agree with the'Cuda. All the tail setup needs is approximately equal geometry in both directions so the mechanical gain is roughly equivelent either way.

To test this hypothesis with a heli trimmed perfectly in rate mode, just turn a clevis a couple turns in the direction that flatens the tail blades, then reset the end points so the total travel is identical to the original setup. Fly it, and I doubt you will notice any difference.

As to whether you could switch to rate mode in some type of failure and make things better, it sounds like a long shot to me.

Wyn
VoltMagic
05-27-2008 10:16 PM
 
 
Brovic777
Elite Veteran
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Per GY401 Manual:
Quote 

In the AVCS mode, the gyro automatically adjusts the rudder neutral
position so that mechanical rudder neutral position changes are unknown.
When the rudder neutral position changes substantially, a left
and right rudder error is generated and gyro performance may drop.
When making your first flight and when reconnecting the linkage, set the
mechanical rudder neutral position by first flying in the normal mode and then flying in the AVCS mode.

Killer Beam E4 450
Check out my HD Gallery
05-27-2008 10:20 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

Ahh you can do better than that...

Check this out
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/...?article_id=932

the video at the end is Bobby Smith flying my mini-t with the gyro setup as described. Let me know where you see the tail performance suffer.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-27-2008 10:26 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

Its funny....I've been involed with numerous threads on this subject...one of which I started myself...many of you posted in that thread......I find it odd that...I've set up or helped set up a 401,240,logitec,hitec,telebee,e-flite,e-sky,align,and zoom gyros....and NOT ONCE did I ever see any mention of the set up technique where you center the slider put it in HH and go....why is that??????????????...I have never seen any mention of it in any manual,or web site(futaba's)...only here on RR.......I find it hard to believe not one manufacturer has mentioned this technique ever....HHHHHHMMMMMM

Quote 
Because of the design of the Trex-450 tail if you do this you will seriously affect the amount of throw you can get using a 401 gyro on the Trex

how is a t-rex tail slider different from other helis...almost all helis from 300 size E to 90 size nitro use the same set up(when trimmed in RATE mode you lose travel in one direction)its been that way since the gyro came out and it will always be that way till they come out with gyros that are not designed to be set up in rate....YOU DO NOT NEED EQUAL TAIL SLIDER THROWS to have a properly functioning tail

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 10:27 PM
 
 
Brovic777
Elite Veteran
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Even thought the Futaba manual specifically states how to setup the gyro correctly, some people will never listen, because their heli god man has told them other wise.

Killer Beam E4 450
Check out my HD Gallery
05-27-2008 10:33 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

if finless bob told people... you could do piroflips if you stapled your d#ck to your forehead....there would be thousands of people walking around with their d#cks stapled to their heads....he's the OPRAH of the RC heli world...if he recommends it..its gold

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 10:38 PM
 
 
Funky Trex
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, OH - USA

No, it is not because Finless said so It is because we have EXPERIENCE that shows it works more than one way. We all know what the manual says. Some helis just don't need the rate mode setup.
05-27-2008 10:38 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

then why do 0...yes 0 manufacturers...even acknowledge this technique...what do you know that the worlds largest gyro maker(and every other one for that matter)(futaba)does not know???

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 10:42 PM
 
 
Funky Trex
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, OH - USA

After a lot of experimenting and TONS of flights I know how the 401 performs on my Trex in rate mode and HH mode, that is what I know This isn't about all gyros or helis, this is specifically about the 401 on a 450.
05-27-2008 10:45 PM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote

I have always mechanically set the tail for all my other helicopters on the bench then test flown in rate mode making small mechanical adjustments then read that to the gyro by flipping a switch to set it correct for HH mode.

Am I just wasting time with this?
_____________________________________________
If your not going to fly in rate mode it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ben Minor explained it to me in the past.

If it's not set up in Rate mode, you'll be flying around with the servo horn off center/ off 90* the majority of the flight.

If thats how you want to do it, what was the point in getting the servo horn at 90* in the first place?
It depends on the helicopter,on the align 450 and 600 when the slder is in the center there is no pitch in the blades.On other helis,JR Xcell,Hirobo when the slider in in the center there is a little bit of pitch in the blades.
On my 770 which is just like the 401 only better in my 600,i centered the slider and put all the arms at 90 and equal travel to each side it hovers with no trim or subtrim in HH.Never set up rate mode at all.
I dont believe Ben is using a 401 in his heli's,and i believe he uses rate mode so it's a necessity.If you set up your slider so theres some pitch in the blades(enought to counteract the torque) with the arms at 90 degrees in HH mode the arm will be at 90 Degrees while your flying it.
05-27-2008 10:56 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

you can go back and check my previous thread on this..so I'm not just saying this now...I tried that before as it seemed like an easy way to set up a 401....actually on 2 different helis(t-rex and MINI TITAN)...both of us got nothing but drifting..especially in idle up...so I dont know what we did different but it did not work for me...as soon as we set them back up in RATE..solid as a rock...I go with what works...every time, every heli....and actually we had heard factory pilots using the ALIGN gyro the same way....a guy I know tried that one that way also....HORRIBLE results....to each his own

Quote 
this is specifically about the 401 on a 450

that has to be the most popular combination in the heli world right now....why is there no mention of this technique anywhere???...I just find it odd that with all the testing that gets done FUTABA has never made any mention of this set up...if this works "just as good"...why dont they tell people??

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 10:58 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

I trim my Raptor's to have no drift in normal mode then flip to HH and get a fast piro rate. If I do the same with a Trex-450 it crawls around on the piro. I think this is because the Trex tail set for a steady hover has the tail slider way over to one side. Most heli's I know still have plenty of throw each way when trimmed for a steady hover.
I also see that the 401's piro is more consistent and the stops are cleaner if the tail is setup in rate mode. Most heli's you can do this but not the Trex-450. This is what I've seen but I haven't played with a bunch of different configurations on the Trex.

...yep...
05-27-2008 10:59 PM
 
 
Funky Trex
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, OH - USA

I told myself in the last thread about centering the 401 I wouldn't bother posting about it anymore. I should have listened to myself. If you want to know the real answer, take the time and test the setups yourself. If you are lazy please just keep repeating what you read or hear from others.

The best part about these threads is all of the "experts" that post one way or the other that are not even flying this combo
05-27-2008 11:04 PM
 
 
fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

Quote 
The best part about these threads is all of the "experts" that post one way or the other that are not even flying this combo

I ditched the 401 a long time ago for the logitec...best move I ever made

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
05-27-2008 11:07 PM
 
 
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