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Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

Is it illegal to fly UAV in the U.S only or is Canada in the same boat?
09-05-2008 08:47 AM
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

It’s not closed doors as the offer is open to anyone, and I’ve been trying for the last several pages to no avail. A 5 minute call would save a considerable amount of time…
09-05-2008 03:00 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

In Canada you must get a SFOC and it is also a case by case process. It may very well be a good example of what you’re facing in the UK.
09-05-2008 03:03 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Ki-Gas,

None of the questions I had for the CAA refer directly to the change to the ANO.

I am looking for information regarding the conditions they impose and hope to contribute to to the outcome. I figure that once the change to the ANO has been finalised, they will address the conditions as the next stage.

I think this time is close now and so will be contacting Ben soon to try and get involved.

In my view, they would be crazy to impose the same conditions for sub-7Kg as the 7Kg-20Kg. If it is largely the same then I might as well operate a 20Kg turbine ship loaded with a gallon of fuel instead of a small electric. There's no way that can be justified on the grounds of safety.

One of the problems will be that everyone who the CAA has dealings with up to now will be the >7Kg operators. I'm sure they would like to see the smaller outfits regulated out of the frame and so I don't think they will object.

If the CAA make it easier to operate a machine under 7Kg, it will encourage everyone to use these whenever possible - and that can only be a good thing for safety.

JohnC.
09-05-2008 05:34 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Good luck John. In Australia, the relevant class is 100g to 100Kg! I think that the kynetic energy involved in a 100g aircraft is a teensy bit different to that of a 100Kg one, but the Mensa heroes in CASA (Oz version of CAA) obviously missed that page....

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
09-05-2008 10:13 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Big Oz,
That CASA doc is, CS 05/01 correct, and what is the airspace situation down there? Would CAP 722 work for you, do you have a large number of private pilots?

How about the UK, anyone know how many?
09-06-2008 02:31 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

Quote 
In Canada you must get a SFOC and it is also a case by case process. It may very well be a good example of what you’re facing in the UK.
So that will be No then?
09-06-2008 09:13 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe, mainly England

Quote 
In Canada you must get a SFOC and it is also a case by case process.

Straight simple answers are no good for Mr. Egan, he likes to complicate things with bull shaff.

Quote 
It may very well be a good example of what you’re facing in the UK.

Why do you think it would be a good example of what we are facing? Apart from the forthcoming changes to the under 7kg we know what we are facing.
09-06-2008 09:19 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe, mainly England

Quote 
How about the UK, anyone know how many?

What bloody difference does the number of PPL's make, they are out numbered 1000 fold by commercial and no-one should fly below minimum altitude of 500' anyway. As UAV's are regulated to 400' and below and cannot fly in ATZ's without permission, what's the big deal?
09-06-2008 09:24 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe, mainly England

John C,

You should really speak to Ben Watkins and also fax you points to him, they are very valid. In a way if the conditions are too similar to the 7 to 20 kg class then as you rightly say, that may actually drive people to operate a bigger machine to carry a bigger better camera.

Let me know how you get on.
09-06-2008 09:28 PM
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Leon
That is correct!

Ki
Here they (PPL) are a very powerful lobby with 413,000 members. In the U.S. it is 500’ above structures and people not just AGL.

I’m on my second/third read of the CAP 722 document as part of my research for commenting on the WG-73 paper. Funny, CAP 722 references the RTCA, I’ve worked with the SC-203 group too.

On page 1 of the Revision History

3 Impending Changes to Regulation
3.1 The CAA is in the process of a consultation with industry over a proposal to amend the Air Navigation Order which will require operators of UAS with a UAV component of less than 7 kg mass to obtain a CAA permission, as is currently the case for UAVs
with a mass of 7-20 kg. This proposal intends to ensure public safety by applying operational constraints to UAVs of less than 7 kg mass, as deemed appropriate to the type of operation envisaged and the potential risk to members of the public.
3.2 If the consultation exercise approves the proposal, it is likely that the ANO Amendment will pass into law in December 2008. Potential operators of UAS with a UAV component of less than 7 kg should ascertain, before commencing operations, whether or not they are required to obtain a CAA permission.

NOTE 1: Impending Changes to Regulation
The CAA is in the process of a consultation with industry over a proposal to amend the Air Navigation Order to require the operators of UAS with a UAV component of less than 7 kg mass to obtain a CAA permission, as is currently the case for UAVs with a mass of 7-20 kg. This proposal intends to ensure public safety by applying such operational constraints to flights of a UAV, or UAVs, of less than 7 kg mass as are appropriate to the type of operation envisaged and the potential risk to members of the public.
If the consultation exercise approves the proposal, it is likely that the ANO Amendment will pass into law in December 2008. Potential operators of UAS with a UAV component of less than 7 kg should ascertain, before commencing operations, whether or not they are required to obtain a CAA
permission. Section 3 Chapter 1 Page 2

In the absence of such Qualified Entities, the CAA may accept
representations from other sources on a case-by-case basis where
acceptable evidence of their expertise is presented. In all cases the CAA will expect to be presented with evidence that the standards applied are at least as demanding as those applied by the Large Model Association to large recreational model aircraft (20-150 kg).
The inclusion of an operations manual covering the procedures to be
followed for all envisaged operations of the UAS is a key requirement to enable the CAA to accurately assess the application and the safety case it makes, before deciding whether to grant an exemption or permission.

3.3 Application for an Exemption or Permission should be made to the CAA Flight Operations Inspectorate (General Aviation), using the contact details below, stating the mass, configuration and performance details of the UAV. It is vital to be clear who
is the operator (defined in ANO Article 155(3)). The operator, i.e. the person having management of the aircraft, and not another person who may, for example, have
contracted with the operator to have work done, should apply for an Exemption or Permission. Section 3 chapter 1 page 4

So you can apply for an exemption (good luck on that one) or permit to fly issued by CAA. In most other countries you have to prove you are safe (impossible to do without data), before they’ll give you permission fly.

Does anyone know what system they will copy, the Canadian SFOC, which is before each flight (have been working on a yearlong permit), or the American experimental and COA?

One other thing that concerns me is the use of “Accredited body” or “Qualified entity” If either of those turn out to be a military contractor e.g. BAE, you’ll be on the bottom rung for the foreseeable future.
09-06-2008 09:52 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe, mainly England

Quote 
Does anyone know what system they will copy, the Canadian SFOC, which is before each flight (have been working on a yearlong permit), or the American experimental and COA?


The CAA have a bloody system, why do you think they need to copy someone. I have a permission and it's no big deal. Yes, as time goes on things will be revised and altered, maybe for the better maybe for the worse but you can't slate the CAA yet, they have a system and it is workable, unlike yours.

Why don't you fight to get your authority to adopt our ways not go around suggesting that the CAA will probably be looking to someone else for guidence.
09-07-2008 12:47 AM
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

I can't put up will you bullsh1t anymore Egan, stay out of our affairs. Talk to the FAA and tell them how wonderfull the CAA's regulations are but don't talk to the CAA and tell them that they should be talking a leaf out of the FAA's book.
09-07-2008 12:51 AM
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

Good bye Patty!
09-07-2008 12:53 AM
 
 
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