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Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals

JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Do we get a Brucy Bonus of "+VAT" ?.

No reply here. It's one way to get the rule changes through without worrying what the affected people think : just ignore them. We only have a few weeks left before it's set in stone.

I think they are following the "EU constitution/treaty/whatever it is next" technique from the government.

JohnC

07-11-2008 02:32 AM

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patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

If this is your chance for public comment you'd better start writing and calling everyone who might listen. Once this is chiseled in stone you'll be living with it for a while. P

07-11-2008 02:39 AM

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Badllarma
Senior Heliman
Location: North West UK

There is another option of course if they don't even have the decency to reply to the ones who have emailed or written too them (I'm one who has heard nothing) they can stick there rules up there back side and we just carry on,

This is typical of an organisation that gets itself into a sweet spot then sees a new growing market they can screw for cash.

I'd say they are very like the government that's in power at present but at least we can vote them out!!!

07-11-2008 08:06 AM

ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe, mainly England

I would highly recommend that you chaps write the old fashioned way with pen and paper and send it recorded delivery, then after a few days check with the post office that they got a signature from the CAA. Also at the same time fax it as a fax is a legal document. Put in your letters that you would like a response from then before they make any decisions.

They will be subject to some charter saying that they must respond within a certain time period of receiving your letter. There charter will be on their website somewhere.

07-11-2008 08:07 PM

pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

I'm a little worried in what Mr Patrick Egan has done for us, he acknowledges in showing his own AP work to the CAA, as a guide line as to what RC AP etc is all about. And now since then, they've not said a word back to us.

from a rather heated thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=891429
snip..Patrick on page 7
'I don’t currently fly and all of the picture on my site are several years old. I don’t fly for what should be obvious reasons, but have shown my work to FAA and CAA personnel from around the world.'

I'll let you decide if his work is a typical example or not.
http://www.sky-borg.com/gallery4.htm

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth

07-12-2008 10:07 PM

Rappy 60
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, Texas

Especially since Disney has a no-fly zone

Dale

Load "*",8,1

07-12-2008 10:32 PM

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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

PDF,
I have seen the images included in Patrick's Powerpoint presentation at the UAV Conference in Paris recently, and they provided a balanced view of the RCAP scene.

I do not believe his activities have created any negative impressions in either CAA or FAA, and in my opinion, it is a shame that he is often blamed unfairly.

The "clampdown" on AP activity began way back in Australia before 2002, and was caused by the over-hyping done by proponents of UAV activity (initially some university people in Australia who even assisted with drafting the draconian rules which became law in Oz in 2002). When you then overlay all the blue-sky marketing hype from all the start-ups (and big players), it is not surprising that the CAAs and FAAs of the world began to freak out.

Blaming all this on Patrick Egan is not accurate...

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites

07-12-2008 11:13 PM

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FrankC
Senior Heliman
Location: Ocala, Florida

I looked at the sky-borg site and the galleries. I see various pictures of buildings, properties, and locations. They are amazingly similar to photos on other AP sites. I did see some disney pictures but it is hard to tell, did he fly OVER disney or just a little to one side? I thought his work looked very typical to me.

07-13-2008 12:10 AM

FrankC
Senior Heliman
Location: Ocala, Florida

The images used in the presentation were donated by different users. The thread here was started on 05/08/08 (US calendar) under the title "stunner pic's needed" and says they are for the presentation. A similar thread was over on rcgroups. I have not personnally seen all of the images from the presentation but am under the impression they were gathered by contributions from these newsgroups.

07-13-2008 12:19 AM

patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Hmmm, earlier in this thread I asked Mr. Whittaker to answer a question directly from forum participants, which he did. All one has to do is read any of these forum threads and look at how post are taken out of context. It was very rare indeed for someone from any CAA to reply as their comments will be taken out of context. They know that the letters will keep getting written with modified versions of the same question all in the hopes of getting the desired answer. Do you lot think these guys are morons that dwell in mushroom caves sans internet? It’s no secret that people all over the world are flying!

My only mistake was to offer to help craft some guidelines to start pitching, and not to any CAA.

I don’t know if I should be flattered, or laugh at the notion that people think I have that kind of pull with Congress (and now the EU government), that I can make a call or two and things happen.

07-13-2008 02:26 AM

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coffman
Senior Heliman
Location: NL

Patrickegan,

I may have missed it so could you explain who you are and what qualifies you to discuss policy with the British CAA?

What qualifications/experience do you have in modelling/UAV's, operating/maintaining (full size) aircraft, knowledge of airworthiness/safety policies? What is your profession?

I don't care what you discuss with the FAA but I would like to know who is possibly influencing and apparently representing UAV operators in my territory to my governing body, particularly as they reside in another country.

07-13-2008 09:23 AM

BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Here we go again! Coffman, here is a little fact of life for you. The world is pretty small, and incredibly, the rule-makers in CAA, FAA, CASA etc etc all have similar problems to deal with, and they swap notes on a regular basis.

But if you feel that all the problems that British commercial AP operators face are actually due to the only person who has got off his butt and paying his own way to attend conferences etc., trying to get the voice of commercial AP users heard, go right ahead.

But you are wrong in spades. We are already screwed in Australia because of the draconian regs which conspire against commercial AP here (only nine operators certificates in the last six years!), and Patrick has been trying very hard to avoid the FAA following in the tracks of Australia's CASA. And guess what? There is also the real danger that the CAA might also get it wrong.

The real fear is that if either FAA or CAA decide to play it tough, everyone else will follow suit, because the aviation authorities have an existing policy of alignment their aviation regulations.

So I too have been vocal in the hope that if FAA or CAA get it right, I can start to lobby the Australian politicians to get them to adopt fairer regs from overseas.

So Patrick attended an international UAV conference in Paris, and actually had a chat with the CAA people, and even got them to directly answer questions raised here on RunRyder. Sounds like a positive move to me...

Coffman, would you also mind offering up your own qualifications (which you seem to think is relevant), what you are doing about protecting commercial AP in your area, and advise us where NL is if it is not actually in UK either (that would hypocracy wouldn't it if you aren't from UK yourself wouldn't it?)?

I would like to see the energy being burned up criticising Patrick Egan diverted to actually doing something positive about the commercial AP regs, but it is obviously easier to sit back and throw rocks.

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites

07-13-2008 02:36 PM

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coffman
Senior Heliman
Location: NL

Keep you Castlemaine xxxx in your pram Ozzy. I only asked who he was as if he is not qualified or experienced in this sort of thing he could bollocks it up for everyone.

I'm not speaking directly to the CAA on behalf of the UAV fraternity so you do not need to know my qualifications but suffice it to say that I operated UAV's and full size commercially in the UK. By the way I am English but have a house in NL.

07-13-2008 03:22 PM

BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

That's cool, it is just that Patrick Egan (and I have crossed swords with him in the past, so I am not some blinded devotee) always seems to cop all the flak, yet there is literally no-one else regularly participating in the UAV debate wearing an RC AP hat.

what should have happened is a bunch of people all working together, but instead we seem to have one bloke under siege by rock throwers - which I don't think is the best strategy...

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites

07-13-2008 03:33 PM

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coffman
Senior Heliman
Location: NL

Hang on a minute, the UAV/AP scene has only just really started to take a hold in the UK, I have not seen Patrick Egan request or advertise for support in his 'one man' quest, he has not knocked on my door asking how I would like him to represent me. I would be all too willing to stand for the UAV front, I have valuable experience both as a modeller and the full size operator, I have dealt with the CAA for 20+ years. Do you think that the people who have a CAA ‘Permission’ are not in communication with the CAA as this whole industry develops?

What I'm trying to say is: If you were up for murder and a bloke came knocking at your door saying I'll act for you, would you say OK with no questions or would you want to know if he was a qualified lawyer and not a carpenter, would you want to know what other murder cases he had solicited for and his success rate. If he was not qualified he could damage your case irreparably and you could kiss goodbye to your freedom.

So …… I ask again, who is this man we must trust the future of our business with? Why should we trust him? Does he fly UAV’s commercially? Lets have some answers.

07-13-2008 05:07 PM

patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Tony is correct in saying that we have crossed swords.

My qualifications are as follows:
I’m a historic remodel contractor by trade. I had been doing commercial RC AP for about 5 years, mainly construction and real estate work. www.sky-borg.com I don’t fly anymore for what should be obvious reasons (and also a lack of free time). My years of integration efforts and work with RCAPA are as follows www.rcapa.net/patrick-egans-bio.htm

I also am the RCAPA delegate for the FAA sUAS Aviation Rulemaking Committee. I just returned from the face to face meeting last week and am a party to several weekly telecon’s. RCAPA is also the only organization representing the U.S. on the ICC (International Coordination Council), and I regularly interact with people from all over about airspace integration issues. The RCAPA has the distinction of being the only organization of it’s type in the world. Most of the integration efforts have an international harmonization as part of the focus. Some of what I’ve been doing and my power point presentation given at UAS 2008. From the feedback, I would have to say that people could relate to the message. This effort also includes hobby RC flying and what to do with some of the newer technological applications

http://members.tripod.com/wcs_bbs/reporter/id3.html

Since then I’ve been invited to present in Moscow, Bangalore and Beijing.
(Not to say that these are exclusive invites.)

What are some of the most glaring problems with the integration efforts?

1. Little or no support from the vendors who make a living off of you.

2. Contempt from end users who feel that they are safe and don’t need regulation.

3. An unrealistic view of how the other airspace stakeholders see this new technology.

4. Contractors who are convinced (and pontificate), that the use of sUAS is not commercially viable.

5. Years of denial that changes in regulations are coming and the ongoing lack of unity from with in this segment of users.

6. Posting pictures, videos and thread titles of unsafe use of the airspace.

7. Lack of investment in the integration effort from top to bottom.

8. People relying on the notion that common sense from within government will prevail!

9. Those with interests way outside of our scope will take care of your interests.

10. Understanding a very fluid technology (that’s here to stay), with ever expanding uses and applications.

This is the short list…

In closing, I don’t really work for any one person (nor do I represent everyone), my primary focus is in the U.S. More than who am I and what am I doing, it should be who are you, and what have/are you doing?

07-13-2008 08:02 PM

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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Coffman, how has Patrick trodden on the toes of the British AP community? By speaking to the CAA delegates at the Paris UAV conference?

I look forward to hearing about the formation of a body or lobby group being formed to represent the commercial RC AP users in UK to ensure that CAA doesn't create regulations which damage the industry.

The lack of such an organisation saw ridiculously impractical legislation thrust upon us in Australia, so the consequences of doing nothing could result in a similar outcome in UK.

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites

07-13-2008 09:29 PM

HOMEPAGE

coffman
Senior Heliman
Location: NL

Whooa! Abbreviation city.

The qualification you have with substance is the 5 years practical but from your sharp suit and ‘short list’ (would hate to read the long one) it looks like the laptop and file-o-fax may be taking over. I’ve seen it before where people had traded their overalls for a suit and from that point on slowly lost touch with the real needs of those they are suppose to represent, I hope you do not!

We need rules and rule makers but not more ruler makers than players. The industry clearly needs an association to represent it all countries, it just concerned me when I heard of one bloke that I knew nothing about going round representing me to my authority.

If there were an organisation in my country I would have joined it and therefore would know what their agenda was, nothing personal but if you said the wrong things I could loose a business. If you plan to represent my industry to my authority (UK CAA) as a RCAPA representative I ask that you post your agenda prior to your conference presentations giving me chance to respond if I feel the need.

I’ve told you what I am doing which I would say makes me more qualified than you as an industry representative and until such time as I am representing the UAV aerial photographic industry I need tell you no more – maybe one day we will meet.

07-13-2008 10:12 PM

coffman
Senior Heliman
Location: NL

Oz, did not see your post before I posted my last one.

I agree, now is the time for a UK organisation - I'll give it some serious thought.

I sympathise with your countries regs. I really would not have thought Aus. would be like that.

I'll keep you informed if I have any useful info that may help you, I am very serious about UAV AP getting a fair hearing.

All the best.
Coff

07-13-2008 10:15 PM

coffman
Senior Heliman
Location: NL

Missed your first sentence. I do not know if he has troden on toes as I do not know what he said, I was expressing concern. As I said, if he was representing my country from my country I would have known about him.

I'm sure his intentions are the very best, I would just like to know who is representing me and what they are saying on my behalf.

Hope this clears it up.

07-13-2008 10:21 PM

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