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Ron’s HeliProz South . Century Helicopter . MTA Hobbies

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Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

I think you guys are extremely lucky to get authorization to fly with a camera with a blanket fee of 200 quids a year.
Over here (Malaysia), its RM 50 (about 10 quids) per site per day, even for non-commercial 'hobby' type picture taking.

However, that said, enforcing this law is almost impossible (unless you get reported).
06-06-2008 02:01 AM
 
 
High Spy
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

I had a read of the letter sent to us last month, it would seem clear to me, that the CAA are not trying to involve the smaller craft or the operators of the same. The whole point of the ANO change is to clear up, as I mentioned before, the correct operation of surveillance aircraft and to ensure the ANO fits the current climate. It has to evolve as the technology advances, this alteration to the ANO suits the current situation.

Below is a paragraph taken from the SFG letter:
It is proposed that the Air Navigation Order be amended to require the operator of an Unmanned Aircraft System with a vehicle component mass not exceeding 20 kg to obtain CAA permission before flying if the aircraft is equipped to undertake any form of surveillance or data acquisition. This criterion is chosen so that the requirement for permission is not applied to recreational model aircraft.
06-06-2008 10:31 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

Do you really think the fee will remain at £200 pa?
06-07-2008 11:51 AM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

High Spy,

What is 'SFG'
06-07-2008 11:52 AM
 
 
High Spy
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

The annual fee has has always been just to cover the costs of dealing with us, with more people and business's applying for annual exemption certificates, I would imagine as with anything run by a Civil Service, the fee will go up annually to cover their pensions. Two years ago it was £80.00 per year, someone must have retired.

SFG should have read CAA SRG, which stands for Civil Aviation Authority Safety Regulation Group. This is a division of the CAA who deal with areas of flying outside the norm, BMFA, blimps etc.
06-07-2008 01:48 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

John,
Those conditions are printed on a typical certificate of ‘Permission’; I think they are typical for all 7kg to 20kg operators.

Like you, I am not dead against commercial operators under 7kg having to obtain a 'Permission'. I would say that the vast majority of people that do this sort of thing commercially conduct themselves in a very safe and professional manner, even if they are not aware of the ANO. I also think that modellers (non-commercial) should be able to fly their models with a camera attached with no permission which I believe is what is suggested in 4.4 of the ‘Impact Assessment’ linked to below. If we are not careful we will soon be able to do nothing without being certificated which means being trained and examined which means extra cost etc. etc. Our kids can’t even have climbing frames in the school playground anymore because if they fall the stupid parents would sue the school. If you over regulate you stifle progress, without a certain amount of ‘free rein’ dreams are not realised, today we can see HD footage shot from a model helicopter, if we had been regulated from the beginning this may never have been achieved. If the CAA makes it illegal for the recreational flyer to fly with a camera, how will it be enforced?

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1727/2008...tAssessment.pdf

From the link above, this bit concerns me: "The objective of this consultation is to seek industry views on whether regulatory intervention is required for UAV’s under 20 kg (particularly for UAV’s under 7 kg)", In saying "particularly for UAV's under 7 kg" it suggests that regulatory intervention may also be required for UAV's above 7kg up to 20kg although the consultation was entitled “Proposal to amend the Air Navigation Order to bring Unmanned Aircraft of less than 7 kg mass within the scope of regulatory oversight.”. This bracket is already regulated and to be honest if they regulate it much more they'll make it unworkable. The fact is that a camera ship operated under the CAA 'Permission' is far safer than your average modeller flying a T-Rex 450 as the modeller does often fly over or close to people whereas the pilot operating under a 'Permission' cannot do this. Also he has to keep records of maintenance and log each flight and also one of those lovely 'Risk Assessment' has to be done for each job.

I read somewhere that there were suggestions that UAV's should be operated on a similar basis to Full Size. I've maintained and operated full size for many years and to expect a model helicopter with a camera straped to it, flown only in line of sight, to be operated like a full size is ridiculous. OK, UAV's that clatter off on a mission out of sight of the operator may well require more stringent operating procedures than they currently have.

I know I keep mentioning it but I really think there must be a distinction between a model helicopter with a camera on it (although the camera makes no difference) flown in sight of the pilot and the 'out of sight' jobbies. I believe that a model flown in line of sight with PCM failsafe (by the way, you must have this for a CAA permission) is not truly ‘unmanned’ as, if something mechanical fails on the helicopter the pilot still has authority over the machine, he may not be able to land it conventionally but he can cause it to fall virtually vertically on command, conversely, if the model is flying fine but the radio suffers a failure the model will still fall to earth in the same manner. Unmanned machines that fly out of sight of the person responsible for their launch and are reliant on electronics making the decisions about trajectory, altitude heading and emergency actions, are truly UAV’s, Aircraft flown in line of sight that are at all times under control of the operator (other than the few seconds after the plug has been pulled) should be categorised as ‘Remote Piloted’ and be regulated differently to UAV’s

In fact you could say it is safer than the full size, because full size do fly over people, they are bigger and if there is a mechanical failure the pilot is not going to pull the plug and stuff it vertically into the ground, he's going to try and save his neck which may mean he eventually lands/crashes somewhere populated.

It also says in the Impact Assessment: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1727/2008...tAssessment.pdf
“The proposed regulatory change will apply equally to all operators, except the Police who will operate UAS under the provisions of an Air Operator’s Certificate”.That’ll be interesting – this is the official description and criteria for the requirement of an AOC - “An AOC is a document that an organisation or individual is required to hold prior to operating public transport (Commercial Air Transport) flights. For operators in the United Kingdom, it is issued by the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). If the passenger is asked to contribute in any way towards the cost of the flight, “valuable consideration”, the flight is likely to be for the purposes of public transport, and the operator of the flight is legally required to hold such an AOC. It is important to note that the legal term, “valuable consideration”, can include methods of payment other than money, e.g. free advertising or payment in kind.” - But there are no passengers!!!!!

I think the Police and their daft ideas of buying a small UAV and expecting pc plod to operate it with no experience of building, maintaining or flying models is what has highlighted this whole thing, and to think that they can just fly over people that are not under their control with a machine heavier than air is crazy. This type of operation is a far cry from the likes of aerial photography/cinematography where on the odd occasions the director requires a few people to be in the shot and closer than 50m they will be under the control of the aerial filming company and be briefed accordingly. I would like to know the conditions of the AOC that will apply to Police!!

All interested parties, whether currently operating UAV’s/Remote piloted aircraft or thinking of doing it in the future should make your comments known to Chris Finnigan at the CAA before 11th. August 2008 - http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?c...=90&pageid=9644

People from countries other than the UK should write too as all aviation authorities generally follow suit, keeping quite suggests to the authorities that there is no voice out there!!!! Next thing you know ….. it’s all too late!

I'm sorry if my post seems to be a bit disjointed in places, I'm just writng this as it comes into my head.

Good luck,

Leon
06-07-2008 02:07 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

I thought that is what you meant High Spy, I just wanted to make sure.
06-07-2008 02:09 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

Looks like everyone is too worried to say anything, good old British way, curse under their breath but don't speak out loud. This is probably your first and last chance to have your say on how your industry is regulated.

The Full size boys probably see a threat and are moaning to their ex military buddies at the CAA.

Happy days.
06-08-2008 05:31 PM
 
 
meflyjeep
Senior Heliman
Location: On the ground and in the air ...

Isn't it all about $$$ ? Even television / antennas are taxed in the UK ...

meflyjeep
06-09-2008 12:43 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

Oh yeh, it's great in the UK, you have to have an annual tv licence that cost £139.5. That buys you 5 stations that play mostly crap ie: Big Brother and all the American rubbish like Gray's anatonmy, ER, West Wing, Sex and the City etc., etc.

If you want to play videos/DVD's on your tv only and not receive the BBC's broadcasts you still have to have a licence because you have equipment that is capable of receiving.

How did the BBC get to own the airwaves??
06-09-2008 01:57 PM
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

Lol BBC is covertly the Governments channel, thats why everything on the BBC news is surrounded by 'red'. You should look at it this way....pay by law £136 (only for the BBC btw) to get government propaganda pumped into your head, or go to jail if you dont pay.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
06-09-2008 02:34 PM
 
 
Bell Bloke
Key Veteran
Location: England

I have been watching this CAA UK, subject for sometime now because I occasionally take aerial shots with my electric heli, and I am concerned. Very, concerned!!
Firstly because I have seen very little interest in this subject, even though this section is just about the most popular area in Runryder, with people selling all kinds of stuff. From mounts to VR goggles, down links.........the list is endless. And yet here you all are continuing on your merry way and appearing to do nothing!!!
What the hell is going on??!!
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS WAKE UP AND DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!
I personally have spoken to the BMFA, AND I have Emailed this link twice! just to make sure.
Why don't you stand up and be counted, ie. all those that have emailed this guy on the link say so here, just so we can have a head count. At least then you can say you did something!!!
But you know what? Something tells me the head count is going to be just about bugger all!
Now I know this is mainly an American forum but laws made here end up in Europe, Australia and maybe even parts of Asia. It is these new restrictions that will eventually even find there way over to you folks in the USA since we do now live in a global village where countries tend to take there lead from each other.
So just imagine how all of the companies here (on Runryder etc) will be affected by these new regulations if they get in.
And heavy regulation to the point of aerial photography being unworkable means even this forum will suffer!!
Well you folks may think this post is a bit of a rant, you may even scoff and maybe you are right....I hope you are! Because I have this awfull feeling that in a few months time I and the people who have posted here will be saying, 'I told you so' and it will be too late.
So please do something, and email this link at the top of the post, and stop looking at all of the latest Aerial imageing gadgets, mounts etc, because in a few years time you may not be able to use them and this section of Runryder will be virtually non existant!!
06-09-2008 10:53 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

Well, that told them!

At least email the CAA guy and ask for an exact list of the proposals otherwise they'll sneak all sorts in thinking that no one is bothered. I have done so and will let you know if I get a reply.
06-09-2008 11:12 PM
 
 
Hogster
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, UK

I have emailed Chris and am waiting on a reply ... seems he's on holiday until the 11th June.

Cheers,


David
06-09-2008 11:32 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

Well done sir!
06-09-2008 11:38 PM
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

I emailed Chris last week asking for the list of conditions before someone is granted permission, but as we know he's on holiday until Wednesday 11th.

If I get anything, I'll post it here.

It does seem a draconian measure to ban any recording device (like a camera) to be flown at all without paying a fee and getting the permission.

If you read the CAA webpage, you find this statement:

Quote 
The UK Government requires that the CAA’s costs are met entirely from its charges on those whom it regulates. Unlike many other countries, there is no direct Government funding of the CAA’s work.

I didn't realise this and now the whole thing makes more sense.

It seems to me that the policy may be motivated by financial gain more than it is motivated by safety.

I would welcome a blanket permission for recreational use under BMFA rules.

JohnC
06-10-2008 06:34 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

John,

The list I gave you is from my permission, I imagine they are all the same. I look forward to seeing what you are sent. As it is it's workable but the distances can be ridiculous as I explained. One of my neighbours flies his R44 from his garden and I fly a full size from mine and if the owners of the neighbouring properties are on their closet boundaries they would be about 10m from the m/r/b tips, so why do we have to be 50m from any person/object and 150m from settlement boundary.

Have you ever been to Aviation House at Gatwick - they need to bring in some big bucks to keep just that going.
06-10-2008 08:22 AM
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

In this day and age, it seems that the governing bodies in the UK want to have the rules written down explicity so there can be no argument about whether they have been followed. Unfortunately, this means they have to write them for the worst possible case. We end up with activities of normal folk being governed by unrealistic constraints which they may well ignore anyway because they don't see the safety benefit.

For example, who stands > 30m away from the heli on takeoff ?. When I spool up, I want to see if anything doesn't look right. - even if it's just a little more vibration on the downlink antenna.

There are fewer and fewer circumstances where personal judgement and responsibility are allowed to play a part. I expect it is all due to the 'imprecise' nature of it. Manhours are very expensive in the UK now and I don't think they want to have to spend them putting a prosecution case together which they might not win.

Let's hope some common sense prevails ....

JohnC
06-10-2008 08:48 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

I've emailed too, to Doug Robertson (the other name on the list) and got:

'Thank you for your email below, detailing issues that concern you regarding the proposed change to the Air Navigation Order. As some of the points that you raised are outwith my area of expertise I will forward your email to the CAA Safety Regulatory Group for a full response'
That was on the 27th May...nothing since.

Will be emailing that Chris guy later as a response to the first reply mail (unless I dont get it, then I'll be emailing him anyway)

Perhaps the CAA should get us all to wear crash helmets and safety glasses too..this country...words fail me.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
06-10-2008 11:38 AM
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Keith Dodson (CAA)is in the room, what's the question? I'll try and find him. Patrick
06-10-2008 03:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
9 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3      4     NEXT    >> ]5488 viewsTOPIC CLOSED
Model Rectifier Corp . 3D Heli Depot . JR-Spektrum

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Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals
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