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Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1727/2008...tAssessment.pdf
05-25-2008 10:14 PM
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Leonidas,

Thanks for posting!

Looks like pretty much the same flavor as I’ve seen in a few other spots. I leave tomorrow for the ARC, curious to see what they hand out. Patrick
05-25-2008 10:56 PM
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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

What a bummer... the proposed regs state that as soon as you stick a camera on the aircraft, you need to pay for specific approval to fly, even in the aircraft weighs less than 7kg. There is also no distinction between line of sight and remote piloting.....

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
Trex 450,
8 & 11.5m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
05-25-2008 10:56 PM
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Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

It is ridiculous to put 'line of sight' in the same slot as 1st. person (out of sight).

As they say with the full size - "you've not got it right until the paperwork weighs as much as the aircraft.

Give it time!!
05-25-2008 11:14 PM
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

That, insurance and airframe certification and you might just be out of the game. Good luck with the enforcement!
05-25-2008 11:24 PM
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Hogster
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, UK

Hmmm this doesn't look good does it

(5) The person in charge of a small aircraft shall not fly such an aircraft:

(a) when the aircraft is equipped to undertake any form of surveillance or data acquisition; or

(b) for the purposes of aerial work

unless the flight is in accordance with a permission issued by the CAA and any conditions thereof.




It is envisaged that all but the largest UAS operating companies would qualify as small businesses. The proposal would introduce a cost £200) to operators and a human resource requirement to prepare an application for a permission. However, this is not viewed as disproportionate when compared to the potential benefit of securing the reputation of the emerging industry.


So does this mean every time you want to do an aerial shoot you will have to pay the CAA £200?


David

Edit: Masts, balloons and kites seem much more tempting now ....
05-25-2008 11:27 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

Hogster,

Does your current machine come under the 7kg?

Quote 
However, this is not viewed as disproportionate when compared to the potential benefit of securing the reputation of the emerging industry
That is a bit bloody rich, aren't they saying that as you can probably earn good money you should not mind being ripped off. The fee should be based on what they have to do ..... that will be £1.50 for the piece of paper. Looks like 'Potential' is expensive!!
05-25-2008 11:36 PM
 
 
Hogster
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, UK

Yes well under, about 3kg I think ....

I've only skim-read that document, but aren't they applying this to all 'aircraft' used for surveillance/aerial work/etc, whether they're under 7kg or not?

Also am I right in thinking it's only Option 4 we have to look at?

I'm with you on that 'not disproportionate' statement ....


David

Edit: Hmmm or is that £200 a one-off fee per year .... that's what I'm currently paying for commercial insurance

Further edit: I wonder if the blanket statement to the BMFA will allow people to continue to do AP just for fun ... Although there's no mention of whether the aerial work is commercial or not is there?
05-25-2008 11:39 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

David,
I read it to mean that adding the camera takes it out of BFMA discretion. Also, I suspect you are correct in that the $200 applies to multiple flights, suggesting a pa fee.

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
Trex 450,
8 & 11.5m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
05-26-2008 02:03 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Badllarma
Senior Heliman
Location: North West UK

What make me laugh is the estimated 50 proposals PA wait until the mail starts flowing in from us all

IMO I think this is to squeeze all the little guys out and keep in all coporate you only have to look at the likes of http://www.uavsuk.com/index.htm to see it's all MOD this or contrators that all blue chip and big multi million pound contracts you imagine these meetings where there trying to sell the next BIG thing and we walk in with a SS a GPS and a thermal image camera and say "yup we got those images you wanted for a few hundred quid"

There is always room for the Aldi's of this world
05-26-2008 03:59 AM
 
 
FCM
Elite Veteran
Location: Back in Blighty!

I can tell you from first hand experience that the CAA do not have to charge for permits if they don't want to. I have on many occasions, had to apply for airworthiness exemptions to carry out ferry flights with FAA registered aircraft (Airbus A300) and crews flying within UK airspace. No charges for his permission were ever discussed so the charges for a piece of paper to allow you to fly your heli to shoot pictures are nothing more than a way for the CAA to generate revenue or perhaps to pay for somebody to administer it.

I personally reject the idea that charging legitimises an industry. This is just an excuse on the part of the author who would have been tasked with coming up with some suitable regulations at no cost to the CAA.

Paul.
05-26-2008 06:07 AM
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

After google'ing CAA Remit

It looks like this is going ahead anyway regardless of what the comments are on the ANO, they have already setup a company for UAS/V certification called USS in Aberporth. I cant for one moment see that they will change anything, IMO its already been decided if truth be told, and despite what anyone says it will go through and we will all be criminals if we fly in 2009.

Would be interested to hear what High Spy, or Rotorcam or any of the others have said in response to the proposal, as the CAA mailed them directly.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
05-28-2008 03:20 PM
 
 
High Spy
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

Quote 
Would be interested to hear what High Spy, or Rotorcam or any of the others have said in response to the proposal, as the CAA mailed them directly.


You're right the letter is basically a copy of the new regulation proposal linked above.

We were mailed it because we hold an exemption certificate for commercial flying, I assume this was out of courtesy. Although if we did happen to have any good reason to find fault, I would also expect our views to hold some bearing.

The obvious reason for these new proposals is to deal with the growing number of very small camera helicopters. There are currently several police forces and fire departments in the UK trialing machines that require little training or flying ability. I would imagine the CAA is concerned about the way these machines are going to be operated. The simplest way to control this is to bring all commercial flying under one umbrella.

I see this as a simple way of clearing up the operating procedures for flying off designated flying fields and generally public areas. At a recent Home Office exhibition, I spent two days telling nearly every Police force, that their perception for what was available/required and reality didn't quite match up. The technology is most definitely available but is it safe to fly it down a busy high street?

If I had any truck, it would be the increasing use of the phrase UAV. Our standard machines are definitely not UAV's, they are most definitely manned (You Know what I mean) and are flown in direct line of site. We need to watch this, it would be very wrong to only have one set of regulations based on UAV's. To me a UAV is a program flight machine, to be bracketed along side it would have severe consequences.

For the guys not already paying for the Exemption Certificate, due to overall weight, I can sympathise. It seems unfair but presumably you are operating commercially, using the smaller machines either by choice or just starting out. If you're serious the cost is irrelevant, it will supply legitimacy to your business, you have a license. It might also stop some people we don't want in this trade.

Rory Watson
05-29-2008 12:40 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

From reading the proposal, it is obvious that it has been written such that 'Option 4' is the only possible outcome and we should take it as read that it is what will happen.

However - the BIG question we can possibly have an effect upon is what conditions must be met for permission to operate be granted.

If it remains the same as the >7Kg category then it will effectively mean that everyone except the most serious operators are grounded.

If the conditions are the same then it makes no difference to an operator if he flies a 20Kg turbine loaded with a gallon of fuel or a 5Kg Logo.

If the CAA are honest that the aim of the regulation is public safety then they should make the use of the smaller machines more attractive. It seems to me that the appropriate level would be to issue some proper guidelines to the operational restrictions (such as flying LOS, NEVER over people and always with consideration of safe landing area should a problem arise). Each operator would sign to say they are aware of these as part of the licensing process. If they break these rules then the license would be revoked.

This would address the main concern of the CAA of people operating without knowledge of the ANO.

If operators have to have BMFA 'B' certs, notify the CAA prior to every flight, inform the local police etc etc then you can be sure it will simply make sure many people do not 'sign up' in the first place and they will operate under the radar.

I'm completely in favour of having rules and guidelines to ensure people operate as safely as is practically possible. However, it will never be completely safe - just like everything else. The control needs to be proportionate to the REAL risk.

The CAA seem to be largely unaware of the extent and professionalism of many people who I know are operating in the UK using the < 7Kg limit.

The details of the consultation exercise are at http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?c...=90&pageid=9644 and the guy to email is chris.finnigan@caa.co.uk.

I would recommend everyone in the UK who is affected by this regulation to email Chris and lobby to get some reasonable criteria for permission to operate.

Remember, this is the only time the CAA are listening to what people might say. After August it will be pretty much cast in stone.

JohnC.
05-29-2008 08:21 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
lib435
Heliman
Location: UK

I have been flying heli's (recreational only) for about 6 1/2yrs now and have just moved into the AP side which is solely related to my work and not for pleasure. I am operating a sub 7kg machine but have set up operating guidelines/procedures as if it were over 7kgs. During the last year i have been in regular contact with the CAA in the setting up of these procedures and have had some interesting conversations with regards to the emergence of sub 7kgs machines. It is true that the CAA are increasingly worried, not about the number of new craft being used but more about the fact that these new operators have absolutely no knowledge of the ANO.

Quote;High Spy The obvious reason for these new proposals is to deal with the growing number of very small camera helicopters. There are currently several police forces and fire departments in the UK trialing machines that require little training or flying ability. At a recent Home Office exhibition, I spent two days telling nearly every Police force, that their perception for what was available/required and reality didn't quite match up. The technology is most definitely available but is it safe to fly it down a busy high street?

With regards to the last sentence of the above quote, there was an instance of a police force in the UK showing there new 4 rotor platform on TV doing exactly that. The CAA came very close to prosecuting under ANO article 74 "A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property".
I actually spoke to one fire service who also used a 4 rotor thing and none of their pilots had any R/C experience whatsoever or knew what the ANO was.

It is exactly this sort of behavior and lack of understanding that has prompted this ammendment as this clearly puts members of the public at risk, so clearly something has to be done. It would seem that the only way to ensure that these new operators are aware of there responsibilties is to have them seek a permission to fly from the CAA.
This would then ensure that they would be aware of the ANO and how it affects there operation.

Hogster My understanding is that the £200 is an annual one-off payment and not required for every time you fly.(at least thats how i read it).

Graham...........

A thousand nuts and bolts all flying in formation, untill one decides to leave and the rest follow.
06-02-2008 11:46 PM
 
 
tlankford01
Senior Heliman
Location: Amarillo, TX 79110

I personally disappointed that CAA is moving in this direction since I thought they were taking a common sense approach with the previous regs on these machines. I am sure that the FAA here in the states is keeping a watchful eye and plans to screw us all. My only other hope is that my company will be grandfathered in. I believe that most people that are in AP and stick with it are the utmost professionals and and should be allowed to continue to self regulate so long as we continue to do so responsibly. It concerns me when I hear companies talk of keeping others out as someone let you in once upon a time without regulation. I must also that I find this offensive when said companies are happy to sell there wares to anyone seeking to enter the AP market and then suport regulations to keep those customers out.
06-03-2008 02:34 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

When I saw a feature on the news last year by the Merseyside police I wrote to them explaining that there is no way they should be thinking of flying over crowds as they suggested and that the little 4 propped hairdryer they were assessing was not capable of chasing criminals on quad bikes over fields as they too suggested.

A quote from CAA ’Specific Impact Test’:

“Competition Assessment
As the proposed regulatory change will apply equally to all operators, except the Police who will operate UAS under the provisions of an Air Operator’s Certificate, it is assessed that there are no implications for competitions.”
- I don’t think an a/c being flown in line of sight should be put in the same category as a machine packed full of electronics and set of on a mission way out of sight of the operator. This type of machine should have some regulation and be treated quite differently; this is what I call a true UAV. A helicopter with a camera onboard is no different to your regular model apart from the fact that it has a camera fitted and it is a lot more expensive, these two things alone will ensure that the operator will take even more care of his machine and how he operates it.



A quote from CAA proposal 4:

“Industry: the reputation of the emerging UAS industry will be protected from potentially
irresponsible operators.”
– I’m not convinced as irresponsible operators would probably not have a ‘Permission’.

A quote from CAA Evidence Base:

“2.1 The objective of this consultation is to seek industry views on whether regulatory intervention is required for UAV’s under 20 kg (particularly for UAV’s under 7 kg) and, if deemed necessary, to amend the ANO accordingly, but without adversely affecting the operation of model aircraft.” – So this is not just looking at bringing the ‘under 7kg’ machines into the ‘Permission’ category but to see whether the regs. for the 7 to 20kg need to be amended. These are the regulations of a typical (current) ‘Permission’:

This Permission is granted subject to the following conditions, namely, that the said aircraft shall not be flown:


(a) other than by operators that hold a British Model Flying Association ‘B” Certificate or alternatively the Large Model Association or other national equivalent competency qualification;

(b) in controlled airspace, except with the permission of the appropriate air traffic control unit;

(c) in any aerodrome traffic zone except with the permission either of the appropriate air traffic control unit or the person in charge of the aerodrome;

(d) at a height exceeding 400 feet above ground level:

(e) at a distance beyond the visual range of the operator(s) of the said aircraft, or a maximum range of 500 metres;

(f) within 150 metres of any congested area of a city, town or settlement;

(g) within 50 metres of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure not under the control of the aircraft operator except that during the take-off or landing an aircraft to which this subparagraph applies shall not fly within 30 metres of any person other than the person in charge of the said aircraft or a person in charge of any other small aircraft or a person necessarily present in connection with the operation of such an aircraft;

(h) unless it is equipped with a mechanism that will cause the said aircraft to land in the event of disruption to or a failure of any of its control systems, including the radio link, and the person in charge of the said aircraft has satisfied himself that such mechanism is in working order before the aircraft commences its flight;

(i) unless the person in charge of the said aircraft has reasonably satisfied himself that any load carried by the aircraft is properly secured, that the said aircraft is in an airworthy condition and that the flight can safely be made taking into account of the Wind and other significant weather conditions;


(j) unless the flights have been notified to the local Police prior to the flights taking place;

(k) the operator maintains records of each flight made pursuant to this Permission and to make such records available to the Authority on request;

(l) unless using the UK PFAT allocated radio frequencies between 34.945 — 35.305 MHz;

(m) at a speed exceeding 70 knots;


I think the regs. are reasonably fair apart from (f) where even at 400’ a helicopter would never travel 450’ (150m) if it were dumped, so having to stay 450’ away from a settlement when filming from say 80’ high is ridiculous – maybe there should be some sort of ‘avoid curve’ graph to cater for this.

-----------------------------------------------------

I think those that fly models for recreational use (non-commercial) should be able to fit a camera to their model if they wish, without regulation, after all, models have been flown for generations and the hobby has a fantastic safety record, sticking a camera on the front does not turn a modeller into an idiot. An idiot is an idiot whatever the regulations. An idiot can use an air rifle without any official permission or regulation but (maybe soon) not a small helicopter with a camera on board.

People that take film or stills only should not be categorised with those that carry out surveillance. As for ‘data acquisition’, doesn’t 2.4Ghz radio gear do just this!
06-04-2008 01:20 AM
 
 
lib435
Heliman
Location: UK

hi Leonidas, thats the exact same instance i was refering to in my post. The sad thing is that people who use these ultra-light systems like that seem to think that even if it did come down unexpectedly it would cause no harm because of its light weight. Its this type of reckless behaviour and the ease with which one can buy one of these systems that has prompted these changes i'm sure.

Graham.

A thousand nuts and bolts all flying in formation, untill one decides to leave and the rest follow.
06-05-2008 07:32 PM
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Leonidas,

Are those conditions for permission to operate available in a formal document, or is it just a list the CAA refer to ?.

It's hard to say for sure what the intentions of the CAA are about this because they tell us nothing apart from 'You will need our permission'. It could be anything at all - it's like saying "The new rule is that we can make up the rules as we want". I don't see how anybody can plan to operate an AP (or other small UAV based) business if he could be put out of work tomorrow by someone behind a desk changing his mind.

It needs to be properly written down somewhere so people have visibility of it and it would have to go through a change control process before it was amended.

It seems to me that it is over the top to make the people who do it for fun pay £200/year when the safety aspect is exactly the same as for other model aircraft hobbyists. I expect most will ingore the rule and maybe fly somewhere private.

I don't have a problem with all commercial operators being registered with the CAA. For the £200 fee, I would expect a pack at least annually with all relevant sections of the documents I need to be aware of before I fly. I have read a bewildering array of different publications from the CAA and there are many parts about small aircraft/UAVs which I wasn't quite sure if they applied to me or not. I'm also left wondering how many others there might be which I don't know about.


JohnC
06-05-2008 08:58 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
CKY
Veteran
Location: Sunshine Coast, BC, Canada

I think it all may boil down to being able to get insurance. Someone has to be responsible if something goes sideways. People just need someone to blame so they can sue for damages. And because these claims are always for rediculous sums of money, someone has to have deep pockets.

Flying AP helis has to be controlled, otherwise it would be like allowing "anyone" to own and use hand guns.

Oh, forgot, some countries DO allow "anyone" to own a hand gun,
bad example
06-06-2008 01:15 AM
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