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MTA Hobbies . Model Rectifier Corp . PowerHelis

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Blade woofing
 
 
Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

I experienced my first in-flight tracking (woofing) problem today. Am running multigov at 1850, gct 620 blades, titan 50.The blades went out of track completely at max forward speed and full collective. We could hear the engine bogging down a little before the blades went out of track.
After reducing collective the problem dissapeared which seems similar to what others experienced. After reading most of the posts on the issue it seems the problem may appear for no reason even though nothing's wrong with the head etc. I have a different opinion on what may be causing this. From what I experienced my theory is that the blades were creating too much resistance at the particular motor rpm which may have caused the rotorhead to outrun one of the blades i.e one blade folded in the grip, in effect a kind of stall. Keep in mind the governor on overspeed setting will do its best to keep rpm high, too much resistance on the blades will be similar to holding one blade with your hand and clutch engaged
I would like to hear what others think of this theory as my titan is new, well built, feathering shaft and bearings greased. In fact none of the other possible reasons mentioned by others is applicable in this case. By the way the blades were not too loose in the grips.
05-17-2008 07:35 PM
 
 
solo
Senior Heliman
Location: San Antonio Tx, USA

My Blade WOOFING was due to my collective servo horn being so badly worn that it would back halfway off the servo spline. I checked all links and rods and everthing was tight. I did not know that the servo horn was stripped. I just retighten it and flew again and the WOOF came back. I almost crashed my Heli that time. I checked everthing again and again my servo horn was halfway off. Thats when I knew it was stripped out. I replaced it and the WOOF went away for good. Ckeck all the balls that you screw into plastic; one could be very loose and thats all you need.
05-17-2008 08:00 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

Actually blade woof on the Raptors occurs mostly during slow transitions through zero degrees pitch not at full speed.

The most common causes are...
Slop in the collective system
Crappy blades
Play between the radial bearings and the grips
Also check your dampeners


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-17-2008 11:22 PM
 
 
Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

I hear what you guys are saying, however my blades went out at full speed,full collective which seems different to the general opinion.
Also what does'nt make sense is why one blade will go out of track due to a problem with a servo as that would influence both blades.
The problem must be a difference in geometry between the two sides of the pitch management at the time or caused by one of several factors such as mentioned by BH.
However what bothers me here is why it would occur with a heli that had only about 10 flights, and as yet I can't find any visible slop or fault in the system.
I also read how some people fitted different heads (kasama,quick) and blades and could not cure the problem, now the question arises why flipping the heads seems to be a foolproof fix to the problem. If those who cured the problem with the headflip had other problems as perhaps mentioned by BH why did it dissappear with the flip?
Is this problem unique to raptors, if the answer is yes in general lt then points to a geometry issue. Also what role does the flybar on top play.
My friend flew his raptor with dampers so worn out that he had about 2mm play in the head and it did not influence in flight tracking.

If we leave out the obvious such as crash damage,bent shafts,stripped servo's etc let's make a list of all permanent fixes, also whether it affects other brands. Also I am curious to how many of you experienced it in fast forward flight.
05-18-2008 07:21 AM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

The last one that I fixed was a fairly new Titan. More than 10 flights but probably not by much.

What he tried....
Replaced the plastic head block with a full metal mavrikk head.
Replaced the collective servo with another, brand new 9252
(each time he got through about half a flight and as soon as he thought it was fixed it would do it again)
Changed blades, changed blades again, I lent him my Radix blades that were fine on my Titan and it dit it again (right when he thought it was fixed)

To save him some brain damage, and the wall he was beating his head against some wear and tear, I told him to do what I told him when he built the thing. Put the tail rotor servo up front, flip the collective servo around so that the shaft was towards the front, get rid of the crappy push pull on the collective, and run a round servo wheel on the collective servo. Get the end points on the servo back up to 100 to 110 or so.

After spending a few minutes complaining that it wouldn't work he did what I told him. It hasn't woofed since. We put the old servo back in, no woof.

In all of the Raptors that I've worked on, there was only 1, TrevorTraffic has that needed a grip flip to solve the blade woof.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-18-2008 01:04 PM
 
 
JimmyD
Heliman
Location: Largo, FL

I agree with Andy (Barracuda Hockey). I'd get woof-n-poof at the apex of backwards loops durring the transition from positive-zero-negitive pitch. I went to an 8711 on the collective and the woof issue vanished.
~Be Safe,
Jimmy D
05-18-2008 01:10 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BJames111
Elite Veteran
Location: Billings, Montana

play in the collective system. I've seen it many, many times. can be a worn collective servo, worn ball links, loose balls, flexing servo horn...

Brian James
Miniature Aircraft Fury Extreme
Align Trex600N
G-Force Heli
Elevated R/C
05-18-2008 04:29 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

Check the screws holding the balls into the blade grips, if they are bent that will cause it too. Unscrew the screw and if it wobbles while you're turning it, replace it.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-18-2008 06:26 PM
 
 
Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

Checked everything, all tight, nothing bent or loose, how many experienced the problem with std paddles and how many with the lighter green ones?, I want to rule out as many things possible.
05-21-2008 02:04 PM
 
 
JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

Stolla,

Before you go too much further, make sure that your blade axle did not slightly bend during your "woof" episode.......DO NOT ASSUME THAT IT IS STRAIGHT !! If you assume that is is OK because you have not crashed or the machine is "new", all of your work to find the cause will be futile.....

The blade axle is fairly soft and WILL bend during a woofing session, depending on how severe the out of track condition was....
05-21-2008 03:06 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

Paddles have nothing to do with it.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-21-2008 03:06 PM
 
 
Big Edge
Senior Heliman
Location: Palm Harbor, FL USA

Quote 
Actually blade woof on the Raptors occurs mostly during slow transitions through zero degrees pitch not at full speed.

The most common causes are...
Slop in the collective system
Crappy blades
Play between the radial bearings and the grips
Also check your dampeners

Totaly agree..
I resolved my R50 woof issue by changing blades to RotorTechs.

-----------------------------
Don't taze me bro...
05-21-2008 03:46 PM
 
 
Arctic
Heliman
Location: Louisville, KY

Stolla,

I have two Raptor 50's. An original V2 and a Titan. I had flown my V2 over a year and more than 300 flights and never had a woof/tracking problem. Bought a Titan and after a few flights had a minor crash, fixed it, and then I started to experience tracking problems. At the same time my trustworthy V2 started doing the same thing. I am not using push/pull on collective on either heli. Decided to fix my V2 first and I tried every fix suggested. Different blades, new dampners, with and without grease, new bearings, new links, elevator push/pull, stiffer servo arms, collective servo support, new shaft, new spindle, new flybar, you name it and I probably tried it. After all this I still had the same woofing problem. I then happened to notice a little bit of play in the washout links.(The links between the washout arms and the swashplate). Replaced those two links and I have not had a woofing problem on my V2 again.

Next was the Titan, and the first thing I replaced was those washout links, but it did of course not solve the woofing on that heli. I made sure I had absolutely no play in the collective system, but the woofing prevailed. To make a long story short, I did get rid of the woofing on my Titan after I installed a Mavrikk Metal Flybar Cage. Why it fixed it I don't know, but both my Raptors now fly as solid and gracefully as only a Raptor can, and no more woof.


Be the change you wish to see in the world. (Gandhi)
05-22-2008 04:47 AM
 
 
Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

Thanks for all the info guys, reading your different fixes ,Arctic is what is bothering me here since it seems there are so many fixes to the same problem that it's almost impossible to pinpoint, what bothers me more is why the problem does not seem to show at least in such greater numbers in other brands. If I have to pick a definate culprit with my heli it can only be the blades (gct x-treme) as there is absolutely no "slop" in my system anywhere, I'm getting a vibe 50 ready so will fit this blade on the vibe and try radix blades on the raptor.
Still I'm not convinced and would continue trying to find the single most likely culprit, therefore my question on the padles BH, even though it may not directly influence tracking in normal flight I'm wondering how flexing, vortices etc in the flybar assembly may come into play, due the flybar being on top of the blades. For sure I won't rest till I find the problem.
Also my spindle did bend during the episode, I could not pick it up with the normal procedure taking a blade off and turning the spindle while holding but I took it out anyway and even then you could not visually pick up anything wrong , only when rolling it on a piece of glass could you hear it was out of roundness.
05-22-2008 06:39 AM
 
 
Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

Quote 
what bothers me more is why the problem does not seem to show at least in such greater numbers in other brands.

You likely will not enjoy my answer but it may partially have to do with the higher numbers of raptors. How many Vibes 50s do you see around town?

Just because you change blades from one machine to another and the problem goes away does not necessarily mean that every blade manufacturered will run woof free on your Vibe 50. Maybe an outboard thrust bearing race is installed inboard on the rappy. Radix don't typically woof on any machine, so if they woof on your helicopter look for a building error.


BB
05-22-2008 11:27 AM
 
 
Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

I disassembled the head to look at the bearings and whether they were installed right way around as per manual, everything checked out 100%, so I ruled that out, It's not a built error. I will find the problem as I will systematically replace certain elements 1 by 1 till I find the fix. Actually I have a fully assembled kasama head and may just decide to fit it now to see what happens, even though it may not resolve the issue it will rule out certain elements
05-22-2008 02:17 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

I've never seen blade woof on a Kasama head, if you have it, by all means, install it.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-22-2008 04:14 PM
 
 
JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

Quote 
what bothers me more is why the problem does not seem to show at least in such greater numbers in other brands.

A couple of years ago, we helped a local flyer overcome a serious "wofffing" problem he had with an Evo 50....... the culprit was slop in the control system.....

So, it's not just a "Raptor" specific problem.....as someone else pointed out, just the mere thousands of them out there seems to artificially exaggerate the problem.........
05-22-2008 08:14 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

We have had 2 EVOs with blade woof.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
05-22-2008 08:35 PM
 
 
Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

It's good to hear other brands suffer the same problem as I really like this heli, in fact at the moment I enjoy flying it more tham my stratus?
It seems the problem went away now so it must have been either the re-lubed dampers or maybe the spindle.
I did a forced auto (my negligence, not fitting the fuel pressure tube)
earlier the day and although it seems a fairly soft landing the fact that the blades rotated slowly at the moment of landing may have been the reason of the bent spindle leading to the problem. If that is the case instead of the woof causing the bent spindle I have to agree with JR that the spindle bends very easily and should be checked first before looking elsewhere.
Again don't rely on the one blade removal procedure as you will not pick up a bent as small as the one I had, listen to the sound when rolling it over a glass surface, if it's not an even sound it's bent.
So all I did was re-lubed dampers, new spindle, (green lightweight paddles) If the problem re-appears I will suspect the dampers otherwise it's most probably the spindle.
05-26-2008 06:24 AM
 
 
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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Blade woofing
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