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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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Aerial Photography and Video > My HD experience
 
 
d-bledsoe
Veteran
Location: Kirkland WA

I thought i'd make this post to share my experiences recently into the HD realm and more specifically how to get and process HD video. I am making this as i found myself very confused about 1080i, 720p and what all that means.

First off this is what i am using for equipment.
Camera - Sony HC5, shooting to miniDV tape
Video editing - Final Cut Pro 6
Compositing - Shake 4
Computer - Custom built dual core intel 2.6ghz 2gigs ram running OS X leopard.
Helicopter - Joker 2 custom built for HD video

The first bit of important information you need to know is that most likely you are shooting interlaced video with your camera, unless you have a highend high dollar camera that can shoot progressive. Most likely you are going to be shooting 1080i. Why does this matter? Well it doesn't really until you start editing the video and more specifically applying motion effects to your video.

I dont want to take the time to explain 1080i vs 720p here as i am just starting to understand it, but if you are interested check this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p#720p_versus_1080i

The first thing i do is capture my video using FCp 6. i capture it with a HDV setting. Once i have captured my clip i need to run it through shake 4 to apply all my post processing video filters like smoothcam, gamma correct, color correct ect.

As i stated above i am using shake 4 for my post processing of my video, i use the smoothcam node to smooth out the video, i also use other image nodes to clean up and make the image prettier. The first night with shake and smoothcam netted footage with wavy results seen here: http://www.derekbledsoe.net/airplan...ome1080iWEB.mov

For the life of me i couldn't figure out why my footage was getting wavy until i started researching more about the smoothcam node. As it turns out while shake handles interlaced video, like most compositing programs when you start animating the interlaced video like what happens with smoothcam(animates the frames so the image stays smooth) the half frames in the interlaced video start to confuse the animated node(this case smoothcam)

upon further research in the shake 4 manual they clearly state that for best results with the smoothcam node you need to deinterlace the source.

So ahh that makes since now i have deinterlaced my 1080i video and retimed it so its now 1080p in essence. Run smooth cam again and WOW big difference, see the video here:
http://www.derekbledsoe.net/airplan...nterlaceWEB.mov
No wavy lines or flikery video like before.

So now comes the tricky part getting the video out of shake and back into final cut. since i started with 1080i i could now turn the interlace back on an retime the footage again, or i can just stay in progressive scan. I choose the latter as progressive scan handles fast motion much better then an interlaced source does.

Since my deshaked video now is in essence 1080p i need to set my final cut settings for 1080p so its not getting confused that my video is no longer interlaced. Now i proceed with my edits.

Ok now i am done with editing and im ready to export so now what. Well right now i am working in 1080p. Thats fine i could export my movie at 1080p but there's a problem with that, most sets cant run 1080p and really no one is broadcasting 1080p over the air. 1080p isn't used all that much with exception of blueray. So i have 2 choices i can go back out to 1080i but since i removed the interlacing in the first place i dont want to do that, or i could go out to 720p. I choose the latter because 720p handles fast motion much better then 1080i does.

What this really boils down to and maybe i could have just said this is, to get good deshaked video from a 1080i source you should first deinterlace it for the processing part, once you have processed your smoothcam and any other video effects you can either turn back on the interlacing, or retime it to progressive scan. I choose the latter as it handles motion much better.

Since many tv's cant handle 1080p i then choose to export my final video at 720p

I hope this post makes some since as i am just starting to understand this whole crazy thing we call HD.

Interlaced video:
http://www.derekbledsoe.net/airplan...ome1080iWEB.mov

Deinterlaced video:
http://www.derekbledsoe.net/airplan...nterlaceWEB.mov

Derek Bledsoe
TRIAX
flyboyap.com
Joker 2 HD
05-16-2008 06:27 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FrankC
Senior Heliman
Location: Ocala, Florida

Thanks for the good info Derek. I have been wondering about the video quality of the P&S cameras and came across an interesting one: http://www.cnet.com.au/digitalcamer...39287959,00.htm

This records 1280X720 at 30fps, I would really like to see a video clip at this resolution compared to the output you are getting. I am pondering buying this particular camera, in addition to the video it is 10mp on the stills and at wide angle it corresponds to a 24mm lens on an SLR. If anyone has some clips they can post we need to get some head to head comparisons going.
05-16-2008 07:32 PM
 
 
d-bledsoe
Veteran
Location: Kirkland WA

So they real drawback to the PS hd cameras is that while yes it will capture HD, it will not come anywhere near the quality as a full HD camera, the resolution would be similar, but the quality im talking is color, and picture quality.

Its all about the glass and physical sensor size and most PS cameras have fairly crappy glass and small sensors, so the images maybe softer, colors may be a bit off, ect.

But to each there own, the work that i am going to be doing this summer requires nice HD source, similar to what trackhead is doing.

Derek Bledsoe
TRIAX
flyboyap.com
Joker 2 HD
05-16-2008 08:23 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FrankC
Senior Heliman
Location: Ocala, Florida

In that case, the dimensions and weights of the cameras would be useful information. I was hoping the video quality of the P&S cameras would be usable for most projects, but as soon as you commit to something a new requirement will crop up that shoots things down. For those posting, even the camera make and model would help because we can always go google that and see the actual camera. I have already decided I want a digital slr (so far the Olympus E510 is the front runner) so I know I will need to be able to lift a couple of pounds. A good camcorder that would fall within the weight range of a d-slr might get a good looking at.
05-16-2008 09:06 PM
 
 
trackhead
Key Veteran
Location: utah

When comparing my 1/3" 3CCD Sony FX1 (first generation HDV cam), and my Sony HC5, the difference isn't visible in good light.

The HC5 is actually a bit sharper, probably due to in camera sharpening than the FX1.

Where you notice the difference is in low light, and in my observations, in brights and highlights. The HC5 doesn't handle those as well.
05-16-2008 09:26 PM
 
 
KarbonBird
Key Veteran
Location: Australia

A great post - thanks Derek!
05-16-2008 10:56 PM
 
 
FrankC
Senior Heliman
Location: Ocala, Florida

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...VCHD_Flash.html

Derek, what would you think of this camcorder? It is 1920X1080 but has a setting for 30p shooting (if I read that right) that it says is a not interlaced and good for internet posting.
05-16-2008 11:09 PM
 
 
rerazor
Elite Veteran
Location: Mich.

So would 720p be more suitable for AP needs (constantly moving) then 1080i?

Are there video cameras that record in just 720p?

Sorry, but I'm trying to grasp all this.
05-16-2008 11:10 PM
 
 
d-bledsoe
Veteran
Location: Kirkland WA

Frank C
That camera would be the last choice of mine for several reasons. the biggest being that it records video to the AVCHD format which is very very hard to edit or process, Trackhead will chime in here im sure. It has the nice feature of recording to 30p, but i when i can just deinterlace my footage myself i'd rather do that then deal with the AVCHD format.

From my findings, and seems trackhead has found the same results. For AP stick with miniDV format.

rerazor

From my findings it seams that 720p output is a better choice then 1080i as there are no inbetween frames. If i were shooting ground based video then 1080i would be better as the image would be a tad sharper, but as soon as the camera starts to move the image will start to blur because of the interlacing. So from now on when i shoot my 1080i footage i am going to deinterlace basically making it 1080p, then output to 720p as 99% of the HD tvs can read 720p

Derek Bledsoe
TRIAX
flyboyap.com
Joker 2 HD
05-16-2008 11:17 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FrankC
Senior Heliman
Location: Ocala, Florida

After posting that I found a rather long review of that camcorder. It pointed out the same things you did. This one is more suited to general video work and not what we would be trying to do. I am looking for more info on a Samsung, the SC-HMC10c. There were no reviews on the site I was looking at, what caught my eye though was the 0.7 pound weight and very compact. I will see what I can find on that one. My eventual goal is a d-slr for the stills and a good camcorder for video, so I will watch what you guys are testing.
05-17-2008 01:34 AM
 
 
meflyjeep
Senior Heliman
Location: On the ground and in the air ...

Great info ... bookmark for sure!

meflyjeep
05-17-2008 02:38 AM
 
 
ministock22
Senior Heliman
Location: Newcastle, OK

Very good post bledsoe,

So you will use software on your pc to deinterlace is that how you are editing your video? I am using a Sony SR12 1080i and I to have notice that when the camera moves, objects blur, besides that the picture looks awesome.

Thanks
Denny
05-17-2008 03:29 AM
 
 
d-bledsoe
Veteran
Location: Kirkland WA

Yes i use shake 4 to de-interlace the video. The objects bluring when the camera moves from what i understand is an artifact from the interlacing, and how information is stored on half frames. So for a single frame the data is actually stored on 2 frames and then combined on the fly when viewed on a NTSC tv. I noticed that as soon as i deinterlaced the picture crisped up quite a bit during moving shots.

1080i is still superior for shots were your camera isn't moving, but when the camera moves 720p is better.

Derek Bledsoe
TRIAX
flyboyap.com
Joker 2 HD
05-17-2008 03:34 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
abwomack
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, TX - U.S.

??

what do you guys think of this camera???

http://gizmodo.com/383843/casio-exi...kingly-powerful

"Powered by AirThunder"
05-17-2008 03:41 AM
 
 
macsgrafs
Senior Heliman
Location: Barnstaple, Devon, UK

Why dont you guys just buy the Pansonic HDC-SD9, it's 1920x1080P.
It's VERY small, 3ccd & I've just bought one, will get a cam mount for my 600 & post some results soon. Just stuck on which mount to go with.

Ross

Seems to me that ALL heli's beat the air into submission
05-17-2008 11:10 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Because nobody likes AVCHD video codec

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
05-17-2008 01:52 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
KarbonBird
Key Veteran
Location: Australia

Derek - just wondering how to change the size of the final Quicktime output window. Is this something that is created automatically by the size of the rendering settings or is it independently controlled?

I have followed your advice on the size and deinterlacing etc - just need clarity on the last step.

Tks

Ross
05-17-2008 02:40 PM
 
 
trackhead
Key Veteran
Location: utah

Karbon,

HDV export for it's native 16:9 PAR is as follows.

320;176 for the micro screen
640:368 for medium screen
960:528 for larger screen
1280:720 for HDV screen at 720p sizes

Choosing different bitrates will affect quality in each size.

For medium screen, I would suggest nothing lower than 2500kbps.
For 1280x720, I would suggest atleast 3500kbps.
For micro, 500-700kbps works well.
05-17-2008 03:24 PM
 
 
KarbonBird
Key Veteran
Location: Australia

Track - sorry I don't understand what you are saying....
I'm using CS3 and these are the settings for Quicktime:

05-17-2008 04:00 PM
 
 
trackhead
Key Veteran
Location: utah

Karbon,

I was under the impression you had questions about the final video size. The numbers I posted appear in your output screen at video size.

Check 'bitrate' and 'basic video' in your screen grab.
05-17-2008 04:06 PM
 
 
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