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Main Discussion > Tail blowing out in stationary flips, any suggestions??
 
 
Spitfire1
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth Australia

useing gy 401 and 9254.
Heli holds rock solid normal and inverted climbouts, flips and aileron rolls.
I did about 3 or 4 forward and backward hard collective flips and a couple of times my tail just let go and frightened the hell out of me, managed to gather it up ok each time, but it was just lucky I was high up and not at 10 ft or it may have hit the deck.
The only thing Ive changed is im running about 10 deg negative and 10 positive where before I had about 9 each way, and also a bit more swash as I needed a bit more of these.
Should I crank the gain up???
Its a 500 size electric heli and im running 80 percent gain in my TX.
Any suggestions, im just starting to get the hang of flips and rolls close to the ground but Im not good enough yet to deal with a tail rotating at the same time.

Even us oldies can Heli. Chris. Perth Australia
05-09-2008 09:53 AM
 
 
karman
Heliman
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

mine always blows out at end of few flips, but that is due to head speed drop, and tail not able hold anymore...

are you head speed dropping a lot while flipping? if not, you can try up your gain. or upgrade tail blades..

L:
05-09-2008 10:14 AM
 
 
RBlyden
Senior Heliman
Location: Pacific Northwest

I have the same problem with my Trex 500 and all I can say is "Upgrade" [rpbably to a GY611 or Spartan or JR770. good luck.

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.
05-09-2008 12:57 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Vance
Veteran
Location: York ,PA

Have you tried a cyclic to throttle mix? It adds throttle whenever you use aileron or elevator. Start around 10% and see what happens.
Vince D
05-09-2008 01:43 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JAGNZ
Elite Veteran
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Using a Governor? If not, then I'd say a loss of HS due to bogging with poor collective management. NO Gyro can hold when the HS is not there to keep the TR up to speed....

Even with a Gov, you still have to manage collective.

Jason Greenwood

Fury Extreme, 2X T600N's, Trex 500, DSX9 2.4
www.3dheli.co.nz
05-09-2008 02:32 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
PitchFan
Heliman
Location: Sunny FL

Quote 
If not, then I'd say a loss of HS due to bogging with poor collective management. NO Gyro can hold when the HS is not there to keep the TR up to speed....

Exactly Jason. When setup properly and using collective managment the 401 works very well. Fast backwards flight is another story but they are tried and proven gyros.
05-09-2008 03:24 PM
 
 
alf1096
Senior Heliman
Location: TX

I had the same problem....It is collective mang. and you not pulling the sticks perfect. try putting 20% expo on alieron and then try it.
05-09-2008 03:45 PM
 
 
drdot
Elite Veteran
Location: So. California, Orange County.

fwiw..
If the 401 isn't working..Your setup is incorrect, or you are not managing collective properly...I've used them for years, only the Spartan was enough better to get me to switch...Even the Spartan will blow out if I mess up badly enough..

John.
05-09-2008 04:11 PM
 
 
JAGNZ
Elite Veteran
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

I disagree, there are a few Gyros better than the 401 now. They can cope with a drop in HS better than the 401 too. The true test is fast backwards and fast backwards inverted. Both take the 401 to its limits regardless of CM. A mate is a sponsored pilot and I he used to use a 401 on his old R50. The Piro rate was very inconsistent. He uses the Spartan DS760 now and has used the JR770. Both are better than the 401 by far.

Jason Greenwood

Fury Extreme, 2X T600N's, Trex 500, DSX9 2.4
www.3dheli.co.nz
05-09-2008 04:19 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
drdot
Elite Veteran
Location: So. California, Orange County.

fwiw..

I agree, but basic flips are well within the capabilities of the 401/9254, and a more expensive gyro will probably not correct the problem...If it does, the issue will resurface as the pilot progresses...

John.
05-09-2008 04:31 PM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: JAX,FLORIDA

Guy at our fdield had problems with his 401 not holding in hard manuvers,he replaced it with 770 and problem was fixed.

JRYSOSXLEVO600VIBEAURORAMAN
05-09-2008 04:36 PM
 
 
ckoelliker
Key Veteran
Location: St. Simons, GA

I have a 401 on my 500 and I can flip all day long. I am thinking that maybe you need to just up your head speed. What motor/ pinion/ battery/ throttle curve do you have?
05-09-2008 04:46 PM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: JAX,FLORIDA

770 holds even when the headspeed bogs severely,as the gyro should.

JRYSOSXLEVO600VIBEAURORAMAN
05-09-2008 05:11 PM
 
 
kirk
Veteran
Location: Thornton, Colorado

A good 401 set up correctly should hold just fine when doing just about any hard flying. The only place they show any sign of not being able to is during piro's (You get an inconsistant piro rate).

I would personally check to make sure the thrust bearings and radial bearing in the tail are smooth and have no loctite in them (I have seen and heard of these assemblys having loctite in them from the factory). I would then move up the tail and make sure that all of the linkages are smooth and the rod moves feely in the rod guides. The whole tail assembly should move freely without the servo connected...

I would then look at radio setup and gyro setup to make sure you have everything set properly (gyro set to digial servo, travel limit set to mech limit, no revo mix). I would also look at the servo monitor screen to make sure the gyro was really at the 80% gain you think it is at...

IMHO a good 401 is more than capable of holding the tail while doing flips (especially on something as powerful as a TREX500), so buying a better gyro will only mask a setup problem if you have one... Who know maybe your 401 is bad

Good luck!!
Kirk

Blitz Avro, Magnum Fuels, Quick UK
05-09-2008 05:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jackheli
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver - Canada

before tampering with the gyro setup make sure the double sided foam that holds the gyro down is not too soft.



Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new - Albert Einstein
05-09-2008 06:04 PM
 
 
jm417
Heliman
Location: Florida

Does anyone have a detailed example of a solid setup for the 401 on the TRex 500. Mine tends to go in fast backwards. I'm looking for the setup on the Gyro as well as the setup in a DX7 or similar. Thanks!

If you touch my heli, I'll triangle choke you!
05-09-2008 06:21 PM
 
 
ckoelliker
Key Veteran
Location: St. Simons, GA

I have my set up for neutral hover in rate mode. I am using a 9257, 9mm servo arm, limit is right around 100, and have a 13 tooth pinion with 100% throttle. My gain is about 50% , but I am futaba. I think that would translate to 75% on the JR.
05-09-2008 06:47 PM
 
 
Spitfire1
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth Australia

I havent finished reading all these replies yet, but my 4s pack i think is only 18c, I reduced my collective to +- 9 degrees as a post to 10 each way and last flight my tail held ok, also increased my gyro limits a tad. Also should be noted Im not flying a 50 nitro no more my heli is a hdx 500, same size as the new trex 500 I beleive.
Ill need to get a 25 or 30c pack pretty soon I think that might be the main cause.
It doesent seem as though the blades are bogging down enough to cause the tail to blow out, but there is a definate power drop during the flip and maybe this sudden power drop is enough to instantaniously flip the tail out.
I have never heard of cyclic to throttle mixeing before, will have to look into that one, it seems that when you start doing this "3d kind of stuff" there is a lot more that comes into play that i wasent aware of gyro wise. never the less Im happy that its finally starting to come together, its taken me the better part of 3 years or so of heartache and crashes to finally get to this point.

Even us oldies can Heli. Chris. Perth Australia
05-10-2008 03:40 AM
 
 
Zman9545
Senior Heliman
Location: CA, USA

When I had my micro, my tail gave out do to what I believe was to low of headspeed. The gyro tried to compensate but mechanically my linkage was at max throw to one side. I came to this conclusion because I had a fast piroette rate one way and not the other. After readjusting both my throttle and pitch curves, everything was fine.

My 2 cents


Zandro

The ONLY way you fail is when you quit.
05-10-2008 04:01 AM
 
 
Spitfire1
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth Australia

theres a lot of good things to think about on this post, but i would just like to throw a few things out there and see if anyone thinks just crap or not..

1. (try to think how to explain this pleae bare with me..)
when my helis on the ground and my gyros in hh the red lights on solid ok, when I move my rudder on my tx the red light goes of, which Ime assuming is correct as if my understanding is right on this if im putting in a tail input to turn the
(([B]hh turns off to allow me to turn)) am I correct here??.
If this is the case what im saying is my TX rudder stick is so sensitive that simply touching the stick with almost any pressure at all wil cause the gyro to turn of HH, ive found putting expo on the rudder makes no difference as the gyro still detects the stick movement.
What im saying is that there is no human on the face of this planet who could operate the collective smoothly enough without touching the rudder ever so slightly enough to make it not go out of HH on my TX.
Is this normal? or if not any suggestions.
Perhaps check your own gyro first to see how little pressure needs to be aplied to make the gyro turn of HH, you may be surprised, on my one simply touching the top of the stick will be enough. This could be just normal I dont know
Also im a bit wary of putting up the head speed as I think the main gear on my HDX 500 is a bit of a weak point, ive set my idle up2 to 100 90 80 90 100, but yesterday I did some flips with 9 deg +and- as a post to 10 deg -and+ with my curves 100 80 80 80 100 and out of about 3 or 4 flips my tail held ok, so I am thinking that to go for any more than 10 deg I may need a 25 or 30c battery pack.
thank everyone for the good advice.

P.S.. on speeding up flip and roll rates, does anyone know how much degrees of cyclic swash movement is too much assuming theres no binding, ive heard 10 degrees bandied around but is there a point thats too much and will cause damage???

Even us oldies can Heli. Chris. Perth Australia
05-10-2008 04:05 AM
 
 
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Main Discussion > Tail blowing out in stationary flips, any suggestions??
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