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HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies . HeliHobby

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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > heehee hee YOU better do something OS !!!
 
 
legoman67
Elite Veteran
Location: Nanoose Bay B.C, Canada

what OS has that TT doesnt is their rep for engines for the last who knows how many years, they have always been a reliable good engine. TT hasnt had that, the TT 50 was a disater to say the least. I havent actually tried a redline yet, but by the sounds of it maybe TT will change there engine rep..

Matt M.
http://www.filepile.ca
05-18-2008 06:07 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
impalacustom
Heliman
Location: Lincoln Nebraska USA

Putting high performance parts in an engine will out last an engine w/o high performance parts. It is what you do with that said high performance engine is what kills it. Upping the octane in your car fuel does absolutely nothing except spend money you shouldn't. The only reason to ever put higher octane fuel in a car engine is to stop pinging. If your car runs fine on 87 then putting 100 in it will only cost you money in fuel, it will not harm the engine or anything.

This is a problem at OS, not a problem with the user unless the engine is blatently run lean. Has anyone called and talked to an engineer about this?

I conclude that if said engine is tuned right at 30% it will not have failures unless there is a problem at the manufacturing side. If this was the case my OS 37 would have failed many gallons ago. I have over 6 gallons of wildcat 30% through it and no trouble at all. Would this engine last longer with 15% nitro? possibly but I want the power and it was designed to run on 30% so that's what I run. The same should be able to be said with the 50. If all these failures are typical of the hyper 50 well then I guess OS didn't design an engine to last very long and the ones that do are flukes.

If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research
05-18-2008 06:39 AM
 
 
Blade_Master1
Key Veteran
Location: Canada

Impala
When was the last time you saw a race car with 10,000 miles on the original engine ?

Increasing octane does increase HP output (I.E. racing fuel)

Have buddies racing cars on dirt tracks, they crush and mix mothballs in with the fuel, to up octane ( don't do this at home you need to know the mix ratio).

your OS37 has a lower compression ratio than a OS50

Rather putting in high octane to stop pinging instead adjust the timing, chances are the timing is too far advance
marketing ploy aimed at rich people
all regular car engines can run on low octane it's all in the timing

JM2C's :)
05-18-2008 11:38 AM
 
 
impalacustom
Heliman
Location: Lincoln Nebraska USA

You can not adjust the timing on new engines the PCM does this for you, the only way to adjust timing is with a laptop and the right programming. On old carbureted engines yes. I own a race engine with 22,000 miles it is a 572 in my Impala. It sees very little strip time. It has a 2 year 36,000 mile warranty from GM. Putting race gas in a stock engine does nothing but waste money on gas. Go pump some VP 112 in your stock engine, the only benefit you'll see is that it smells different. You will see no benefit in HP. Stock engines run on 87 because they run low compression. There isn't an engine out there that is running over 11:1 except maybe the Z06 or Viper engine, and some pasta rockets but I would doubt many. Plus
the new Z06 will tell you in the manual to run 91/93. If you hook up a computer to your OBD2 port you will see your knock sensor pick up knock on hard acceleration, so the computer retards timing. You don't notice this because it does it continously. I have worked far far more on car engines than R/C so my knowledge of R/C engines is limited but the concepts are all the same.

What I was saying is that the 50 was designed to run 30% then it should run 30%. OS has a poor design if you have to run less. What's the point of having a hyper 50 if you can't run 30%? You bought it for the power not for the weight. A regular 50 will put out the same power at 30% than the hyper will at 15% plus last longer. Poor design if you ask me.

If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research
05-18-2008 09:11 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

a bit more info,,

I remember when I took my first Hyper 50 apart, I checked the combustion chamber in my Hyper's head against the older silver head's combustion chamber,,

on my Hyper's head the combustion chamber area around the edge of the Squash Band is not as deep as on the old silver head, so the hyper's head is closer to the pistin,, "and in those photos where do we see the pitting on the Hyper's piston and head ?" right around the edge of the Squash Band, same place I got pitting on my engine..

Jim

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
05-18-2008 10:49 PM
 
 
CT.Chopper
Veteran
Location: Meriden, CT

Ok,
i thought ringed piston/cyl had no "squish" band

i always refered to the non ringed engines as those with a squish band...

if it had a taperd cyl. you wouldent be able to push the piston up through and out of the sleeve....?

is this correct?

Rob Landry.
05-19-2008 01:45 AM
 
 
firefox
Senior Heliman
Location: Thailand

Where I live, it's hard to see people using 30% fuel in their hypers. It's just too expensive (fuel here costs about 30% more than in the US, and with incomes much less than the US... you do the math). It's much, much more common to see 0-15% fuel, even for those who do 3D, unless you've got a sponsor or have the cash to burn. Yet, we still see Hyper bearings fail on a regular basis. Mine got notchy on 15% fuel, during run-in (after less than 10 tanks of hovering), and have been replaced twice (no pitting or other indicators of malfunction). I personally saw another Hyper get notchy on 0% fuel (yes, 0% nitro) after two dozen flights.

So, why is there this insistence that 30% fuel is the culprit?
05-19-2008 05:42 PM
 
 
nivlek
rrProfessor
Location: Norfolk England

Quote 
Ok,
i thought ringed piston/cyl had no "squish" band

i always refered to the non ringed engines as those with a squish band...

if it had a taperd cyl. you wouldent be able to push the piston up through and out of the sleeve....?

is this correct?

In a word , no . The squish band is a part of the combustion chamber , it has nothing to do with the engine being ringed or not.

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
05-19-2008 05:47 PM
 
 
mmc205
Senior Heliman
Location: PA - USA

using 30% isn't the culprit, but the thought is that anything that puts more load on the engine would expediate the bearing failure. That would include: running high nitro without shimming or using a cold plug to change timing, heavily loading the engine (think improper pitch throttle curve so your trying to do 3D at 1400 rpm), ultra lean mixture, vibration due to poor balancing of fan assembly, bad fuel (fuel that would otherwise work fine but because of contaminents might pre-ignite), among others.

If the bearing was up to the task, the engine might be able to handle the extra punishment, but it seems to be on the hairy edge even when its in good condition. I'm not saying a bad bearing, i'm saying and undersized bearing for what load its taking. Again, if that particular bearing is within manufacturing specifications but on the far end and your the unlucky person who has that bearing, guess what, its going to fail before your buddy who has the same engine, flying style, fuel etc. Aside from a good design, tight manufacturing tolerances cost $$$. The tighter the spec, the more costly. There is a exponential relationship between cost and performance. think of it in terms of cars. on a scale of 1 to 10, a kia performs 4 and costs $12,000. A Honda performs 6 and cost $20,000. A BMW performs 8 and cost $50,000. A porche performs 9 and costs $100,000. A high end lambo performs 10 and costs $250,000. See the trend? Honda for argumenst sake is 20% faster, lasts 40% longer and is roughly 2X a Kia, a lambo is 3x faster, lasts the same as a kia and is 20X the price. This is also really similar to law of diminishing returns. price goes up exponentially as performance only goes near linearly. My point with all this is that if you want a superb engine that will never fail under serious abuse and last a really long time, be prepared to pay $1200 or so. Thats too much you say? Don't worry though, you won't have to replace the rear bearing any more, isn't that worth the extra $1000?

Dude, you have a bird on your sweater
05-19-2008 06:48 PM
 
 
lightningrc
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

I see the trend but YS is in the same sort of power and price range , dont here loads of people moaning about there rear bearing failing.

And the thing is OS is supposed to be like one of the top brands in my eyes , glad I did not go for a cheaper one
05-19-2008 07:46 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

edited,,

MMc205,, I don't mean to fight with you but,,,,

1) ""a cold plug to change timing" ,,, well a colder plug will retard time, that would actually be better for the rear bearing,,

2) ""If the bearing was up to the task, the engine might be able to handle the extra punishment"",,, what you mean here is if the bearing was up to the task it would handle the punishment, and yes, but the question is~ is it a grade 1 cheap Chinese bearing ? or a high quality grade 3 or 5 bearng made in US or Japan,,

3 ""if that particular bearing is within manufacturing specifications"" ,,, manufacturing specifications mean NOTHING, it's the ABEC/ISOP0 rating that we need to look at, a number 1 is the lowest grade, and that is what is coming in these engines, and if the bearing is NOT marked you better question it's quality and where it was made !!!

4) ""There is a exponential relationship between cost and performance"" ,, there you go you hit it good, and Boca is offering a replacement bearing kit for the OS 50 with both front and rear bearings for only $10, so for that $10 price from Boca you can only guess what OS is paying for their UN-marked bearings, what's going on is we are buying a $200 engine and getting $2 bearings in it,,

5) ""My point with all this is that if you want a superb engine that will never fail under serious abuse and last a really long time, be prepared to pay $1200 or so"" ,,, well, all I can say here is I have friends that DON"T have problems with their Hyper 50, these guys have 12, 14 and 15 gallons run threw their engines, I would have to believe most people that buy the Hyper 50 don't have problems..

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
05-19-2008 08:53 PM
 
 
mmc205
Senior Heliman
Location: PA - USA

""a cold plug to change timing" ,,, well a colder plug will retard time, that would actually be better for the rear bearing,,

Thats what i meant, i should have said without shimming or without running a cold plug.

2) ""If the bearing was up to the task, the engine might be able to handle the extra punishment"",,, what you mean here is if the bearing was up to the task it would handle the punishment, and yes, but the question is~ is it a grade 1 cheap Chinese bearing ? or a high quality grade 3 or 5 bearng made in US or Japan,,

I see your point, but realize a higher abec rating will give you extended life only if its not overloaded to begin with. That is to say a abec 7 bering will fail nearly as quick as an abec 1 if they are severly overloaded.

3 ""if that particular bearing is within manufacturing specifications"" ,,, manufacturing specifications mean NOTHING, it's the ABEC/ISOP0 rating that we need to look at, a number 1 is the lowest grade, and that is what is coming in these engines, and if the bearing is NOT marked you better question it's quality and where it was made !!!

Even with the most expensive bearings, dimensional tolerance stackups can work against you, though your point is taken that a higher abec would be better, and i would personally accept a higher engine cost if that were the case.

4) ""There is a exponential relationship between cost and performance"" ,, there you go you hit it good, and Boca is offering a replacement bearing kit with both front and rear bearings for the OS 50 for $10, so for only $10 you can only guess what OS is paying for their UN-marked bearings, what's going on is you are getting a $200 engine with $2 bearings,,

I can pretty much agree with this, except that $10 bearing your buying aftermarket probably cost boca the same $2, might be the same class of bearing.

5) ""My point with all this is that if you want a superb engine that will never fail under serious abuse and last a really long time, be prepared to pay $1200 or so"" ,,, well, all I can say here is I have friends that DON"T have problems with their Hyper 50, these guys have 12, 14 and 15 gallons run threw their engines, I would have to believe most people that buy the Hyper 50 don't have problems..

I don't have any problems with mine either, i'm just trying to help get to the bottom of this whole thing. The other thing we're all discounting is the unheard voices of the many people who don't have any problem. They are not in the chatroom talking about it, they are out flying. That hold for almost any product, even great ones. You almost never hear from the people who are happy, only from the ones who have a problem.

Dude, you have a bird on your sweater
05-19-2008 09:05 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

you know I have a friend that has been flying RC planes since the later 60s and he bought his first collective pitch heli in 1974, he has been flying helis and planes all this time and he has no answer ether..

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
05-19-2008 09:12 PM
 
 
Topher
Veteran
Location: Rochester, Michigan

Quote 
Increasing octane does increase HP output

No it doesnt. Higher octane fuel contain similar amounts of energy as fuel with lower octane ratings. Octane just refers to the fuels ability to spontaneously combust, which creates pinging, and is why its used in high compression, advanced timed, racing engines.

Like most of you have suggested before, I believe the problem is cheap chinese bearings. The only way to confirm this is to find out where exactly OS is getting their bearings from. A few tests with high quality bearing(s) should be tried as well. Bearings constructed from a hardened steel as I dont believe ceramic bearings are up to the task in these engines.

will wash your heli for a quarter
05-19-2008 09:14 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

Topher,, as I too believe,,,


""A few tests with high quality bearing(s) should be tried as well""

I earlier went to my Local Bearing Shop,, I am now awaiting a call from my friend Bill, he is calling SKF and Timken for a grade 3 and grade 5 bearing for me,, I will have to OK the sale after he finds what their prices are,,

so we shall see

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
05-19-2008 09:46 PM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Increasing octane does increase HP output
----------------------------------------------------------------------

No it doesnt. Higher octane fuel contain similar amounts of energy as fuel with lower octane ratings. Octane just refers to the fuels ability to spontaneously combust, which creates pinging, and is why its used in high compression, advanced timed, racing engines.

It's not the higher octane that give it more power,it's higher compression and timing that the higher octane allows the engine to use.
Cold glow plugs are not goimg to help the bearing issues,all size engines need bearing replacement after while,to say that some people dont have bearings that need replacing after a while is bullsh!t.If it weren't for the firing pulses that load the bearings at the 6 o'clock positon(witnessed by simple inspection)the bearing probably would last almost forever. Bearings are a maintiance item,live with it.
05-19-2008 09:49 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

""to say that some people dont have bearings that need replacing after a while""

whom said that ??? or is it who said that ???

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
05-19-2008 10:03 PM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
) ""My point with all this is that if you want a superb engine that will never fail under serious abuse and last a really long time, be prepared to pay $1200 or so"" ,,, well, all I can say here is I have friends that DON"T have problems with their Hyper 50, these guys have 12, 14 and 15 gallons run threw their engines, I would have to believe most people that buy the Hyper 50 don't have problems..
05-19-2008 10:07 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

I don't get it, I don't get it,,

are you saying every Hyper 50 has a bearing problem rather it happens at 3 gallons or 20 gallons ???

I mean if someone has 12 gallons on their enegine and have no problems, then they have no problems,,, right..

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
05-19-2008 10:18 PM
 
 
Topher
Veteran
Location: Rochester, Michigan

Wasp, if you find some good bearings that work and can buy in bulk to save some cash let me know.

will wash your heli for a quarter
05-19-2008 11:59 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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