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Beginners Corner > Auto 101

SkyWarp
Heliman
Location: CA-USA

Listen up peoples. I cannot stress enough the importance of the ability to auto. If this was my class, you can not graduate until you can do one successfully. I’m saying this because acquiring these skills will save you many times over. I’ve already seen incidents where the heli could have been easily saved or damages kept to a minimal if they only had the skills to auto. Anyway, this topic is intended for those of you who already had numerous unsuccessful attempts or for the individual contemplating. What I have is an alternative with a trick that really works! So all you experts out there who can auto inverted, don’t dog this thread and tear it apart until you’ve physically tried it and can honestly say it doesn’t work. I’m asking if you could refrain from negative feedbacks because I'm simply trying to help another fellow pilot who is having difficulty performing a successful auto. If anything, make additional comments that will help. My method is simply this….Break it down! My theory is to take baby steps and get a grasp of the fundamentals before plunging into a full auto. Attempting it in this manner makes the maneuver less intimidating and allot easier. If you browse the forums this topic has been discussed repeatedly and most of everyone suggests that you initiate one at a reasonable altitude. Theoretically yes, but this approach is more challenging to some than to others so I believe an approach that is totally the opposite. Come in like you normally would for a landing with some forward speed, as if it was an airplane. Just when you get about waist high, flip the switch. Your heli will glide pretty much at this point and then add the flare to stop forward momentum just before touch down. The secret is to add collective on the flare and not during the decent this close to the ground. It’s that easy! Keep in mind that you’re only waist high so condition your mind that there is no need to panic here because you have lots of energy on the blades for lift. I found this method to work on minis too. However, with the little guys you can run it on idle2 for added energy for that extra lift and hangtime. Before you go out and try this I have a word of caution... DO NOT attempt a power recovery on both accounts because you don’t have enough altitude to regain power and only attempt this kind of auto when your comfortable with landing.. I highly recommend that you practice on the Sim first provided that you add the extra weight and remember to always auto towards the wind. Other than that, good luck. As you make progress, slowly get higher each time. You will eventually discover that negative pitch will be required as you reach a certain altitude to maintain heedspeed but you don’t have to worry about this at this stage. Post your success stories so everyone knows this works.

In closing, remember and visualize an airplane type landing with a flare. I repeat, with a flare! Although you are utilizing an airplane approach, it is not an airplane.

Century Swift-
When in doubt, pull out. And that applies to everything.

05-07-2008 01:44 AM

Markus87
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, AU

i think its aggreed that an auto should be done with some forward speed but you need to get rid of most if not all of that speed when you flare for landing. If your a begginner and you try to do an auto with to much forward speed you at a greater risk of tipping your heli, even more so if you fly from a grass area. skidding auto's are fun but they need to be done from a hard surface, they dont work so well in grass.

doing an auto from a higher altitude isnt a bad thing either. It lets you establish a good decent rate and allows you to hear the rotor head spinning, if your to close to the ground you'd be in to much of a rush to appreciate these things. Also a high auto will allow you to bail out if you think you've ballz'd it.

I agree learning to auto is a must, i finish all my flights with an auto, and not just a throtle hold, i cut the bugger!! Auto or die!! hahaha

Mark

"Takeoff is optional, landing is not"

05-07-2008 01:56 AM

SkyWarp
Heliman
Location: CA-USA

I just showed an individual who has only been flying long enough to hover in all orientations on a mini who’s also very proficient at landing without training gear. I performed the auto with my Century Swift just as I described it above while explaining the approach. Needless to say that he’s never attempted one before and only walked out with broken skids do to hard landing. This happened because when he attempted to flare, the heli pitched up and slightly gained altitude and finished with a hover that was too high for a gradual decent before loosing lift. So let me clarify… make certain you’re comfortable with flares. Braking your skids is allot easier to swallow than breaking everything else.

Century Swift-
When in doubt, pull out. And that applies to everything.

05-08-2008 08:33 AM

tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

I agree with Sky 100%.

Thats the way I've been convincing the scale dudes at the field to start training autos.

Although nowadays I'm pretty proficient at autos (still having the occasional cold sweat during inverted ones though) that was EXACTLY the way I learned them.

I had a video the from the first time I started to do autos (over two years ago... has it been that long?

). I'll try to find it and post it.

Tony

--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

05-11-2008 02:44 AM

HOMEPAGE

SkyWarp
Heliman
Location: CA-USA

Thankyou Tchavei for replying.
I cannot stress enough for everyone to try this method if nothing has worked for you in the past, or just never had enough confidence to try. Autos don’t just save your heli, they are also loads of fun. They are just as addicting as all those other maneuvers pilots insist on learning first. I personally think the wow factor is just as equal. That video you mentioned would be great. I could see that being an effective training aid.

Century Swift-
When in doubt, pull out. And that applies to everything.

05-11-2008 05:21 AM

davidjc
Heliman
Location: Kentucky

I'm just starting to do auto's. I started down low so I could get used to flipping the switch and that's working good now. I just haven't worked up the nerve to go above the 10ft. or so level. Do you need alot of negtive pitch input to pull off the high auto's?

05-11-2008 09:43 PM

tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

To answer your question, no you don't. Depending on the bird -1 to -4 will work perfectly. -1 is more for 90 sized birds with heavy blades as they keep their momentum.

Here's a tip that will help you alot:

Once the blades are in their optimum angle (i.e. keeping or even gaining rpm) they will start to "sing". Basically what you should do is start the auto very high at center stick and then play with your negative part of the collective. There will be a point when suddently the blades start producing a humming sound. Thats their "sweet spot".

I know that at the beginning autos are nerve breakers so just the possibility of taking the heli high and playing with the collective sounds scary. If that is indeed your case, find the guy at the field that is the best on autoing and ask him to auto your bird down. Play close attention to the sound so you can memorize it and reproduce it later on.

Last year I blew up my engine while I was flying (thank God I was high) and by the time I realised what had happen, I could count the blades. I immediately gave a good amount of negative pitch and suddently everybody turned around as they started to hear the "whining" and the blades spooling up like mad. I had so much headspeed when I reached the ground, I even had time enough to throw in a 180 deg piro

Its a common misconception that if you hit throttle hold at 2100 rpm its going to be much better than say 1800. Thats just plain wrong. Once that switch is hit, you're on your own and have to play and trade between forward speed and headspeed.

There is one type of auto I enjoy very much although its very imprecise for spot landing. We call it "diving autos" locally. It consists in climbing fairly high and far away, do a 540 stall turn and shut off the engine (completely) once the nose points strait down. You keep the pitch at 0 while the heli literally races towards the ground (it will also start loosing headspeed). When you're at 20 feet, you give +1 and pull out of the dive killing the headspeed further but you also trade the "fall" energy into forward motion. Once the bird is level, it will be basically comming in like an F16. You reduce pitch to say -2 or -3 and slightly raise the nose. This will start to "charge" the rotor with a HUGHE ammount of rpm while it will also start to slow down the forward motion. When it finally reaches the field and aproximate area where you want to land, you flare to stop the rest of the forward motion and then you use all the energy stored in the blades to land. Sometimes the forward motion is so high that you just can't stop it without sacrificing too much headspeed so you just let it go and transform a diving auto into a sliding auto. Pretty cool to watch

On more thing. Just as with real helis, our models also have a "dead heli zone". Do not attempt to do a stationary auto between 10 and 30 ft. The downwash won't let you spool up the rotor and the landing is going to be ugly. You can do safe autos in that zone as long as you have some forward motion. Since you're able to do them at 10ft, try them while the heli is moving. You will see its easier and no "dead heli zone"

Tony

--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

05-11-2008 10:41 PM

HOMEPAGE

davidjc
Heliman
Location: Kentucky

Thanks Tony
I have a 600n with the G5 blades. Would you say that it is easy from higher up seeing as how you have more time to go to negative pitch and gain the needed head speed or you just have to go for it and cross your fingers that you have put enough in it to make it work.
I don't have anyone at the field that does auto's yet so I'll be the crash

dummy.

05-12-2008 01:13 AM

tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Man I really wish I had that video with me. It basically shows how I went from 3 feet autos to 100 feet autos in less than an hour

Anyway, I don't know the G5's weight. Can you check or try to find out? If they are heavy (ie above 135gr) and have a wide chord (55mm+) they should auto pretty ok. The weight is directly proportional to their capabilities to auto (ie 142gr auto very nice, 130gr are ok but acrobatic autos are a rolling dice, 120gr and you better be really good)

I think that as long as you don't rush it and keep it cool you will succeed. I learned on MAH 603mm narrow chord with 121gr. These are the worst possible blades you can use and yet I did them and I never crashed. Even if you crash, I wouldn't worry too much because you're powerless i.e. the blades don't have much energy and I doubt that it will get worse than a bent flybar or a landing gear.

A few additional tips:

1. Choose a windy day. It REALLY REALLY helps
2. start at 3 feet. Land, spool up, take off, do a soft turn and when the bird is strait into the wind, do another one. land and repeat. Try doing them with the bird in motion.
3. go slowly higher every time you do them. The only thing you will notice is that you keep your stick in the neg area longer and longer. Any body who does a 10ft auto is able to do a 300ft auto. You only need to keep calm on the way down.
4. Be smooth on the collective. minimize corrections during the descending phase. Never jerk the sticks around. It just kills headspeed
5. when you flare you have to lift the nose slightly so you can stop the forward motion however, do what you can so you don't land with the back of the skids first. This doesn't pose a problem but if you come in hard, you might hit your boom. push the elevator stick a little forward. Its no shame to slide a little on the ground.
6. don't flare too soon. I've seen people flaring and stopping the bird 10 ft above ground... then its a free fall from 10 ft. You can start to flare gently at 15ft but so gently the flare prolongs down to 3 feet or less. When you efectively stop the bird's motion, you should be at a height that even if everything goes wrong, the bird doesn't suffer.
7. Always land upright (obviously). What I mean is that if you see things go wrong. Land/drop it as level as possible. Nowaday landing gears are pretty tuff and will withstand alot of abuse. You'll be suprised the impact they can withstand.
8. About your question... yes they are easier from high up but if you work your autos two feet at a time, in about 50 attempts you will be 100 feet high

Much easier than just climb and hit that switch for the first time.

9. before starting your autos, spool up the bird and hover for 30 seconds. Land and let it spool down by itself without touching the head. Go over the bird and tighten down the main blades so they don't fold on you if you happen to land with a low headspeed.

I had several of my friends doing 3 feet autos and they love them. They didn't even realise when those 3 feet became 5 feet, 8 feet, 20 feet but suddently they could just flick the switch and auto their precious down without damage.

One final thing... even if you crash, repair and try again. Its going to save you money in the long run. I've lost count of how many times I ran out of fuel or had a flameout. If I didn't knew how to auto, I would have crashed each and every time spending big $$$. You can't always save the bird (too low, no headspeed left, etc) but you can minimize the damage greatly if you know how to auto.

Just to make you feel better:

Two weeks ago I started doing acrobatic autos with my stock radix (142.gr) very nice (2) results. In the meanwhile, I got some radix SB's (126gr) and everybody warned me that acrobatic autos would be tricky with them. The problem is that I love how they feel in the air but also love doing autos so I decided to bite the bullet and hit that switch inverted (on a windless day). Well the first 3 went pretty OK although the bird bounced several times on final touchdown. On my 4th attempt, nerves got over me and I flipped too fast killing all the headspeed. What was even worse is that I put my pitch at 0 at 3/4 of the flip so the bird basically slide into the ground.
Ripped out 3 frame saves, split landing gear and bent a flybar. My replacement parts should arrive tomorrow so I can repair it and try again tuesday

. I'm going to do pushover autos with 600mm Sbs no matter what!

Tony

--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

05-12-2008 01:39 AM

HOMEPAGE

davidjc
Heliman
Location: Kentucky

Tony
I have a set of SAB 600's and I compared them to the G5's and they seem to be the same, not sure about weight but they are wide cord.
I have the G5's mounted and have been doing the low auto's with them and haven't tried the SAB's yet (read backups). I have practiced doing the low auto's at least ten times each time I can get out to fly (some on each tankfull) this spring and it is getting better and not as nerve racking so I'll do like you suggest and take it up a little at a time until the fear of crashing doing it lets up.

05-12-2008 02:04 AM

tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Take your time. We all move at our own pace. I spent 8 months hovering when I got into this hobby and it took just one afternoon to start doing full blown autos. So what? As long as you are having fun, thats all whats counts

Tony

--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

05-12-2008 02:49 AM

HOMEPAGE

Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Auto 101

Hope you don't mind me throwing the technique I use to teach my students. It has been a largely successful technique. I have used it for several folks now and it seems to be a pretty painless and easy method to work up to.

===========================================

1st...Remember the rules!!

Rule #1 Do NOT hit the back of the skids - Your boom will bounce up into the blades and POW!

Rule #2 Tighten up those blades to help avoid boomstrikes. Spin up the blades first then tighten them up.

Rule #3 Do NOT hit the back of the skids.

Rule #4 Try to auto where there is smooth surface and DO NOT be afraid to slide - it's far better (and fun) to slide than it is to lean the heli back too late and violate rules 1 and 3.

Rule #5 If you are autoing onto thick grass where you cannot slide without hanging up a skid - good luck.

Rule #6 ALWAYS auto into the wind - unless you are good.

Rule #7 If you are autoing a 550mm blade machine then you really need to auto into the wind - recommend upgrading to 600mm 50 sized machine - they auto soooo much easier.

Rule #8 Don't try autoing with the training gear on - Tooooooo heavy!!!

Rule #9 Try to get the auto reasonably close ( but not too close) so you can see it's altitude and speed. If it's 50 feet away and moving at the end of the auto you might not be able to tell.

Rule #10 Practice your first autos in normal flight mode - just drop the stick to the bottom (with about -4 to -5 deg of pitch) and drop it into the wind, swoop in, flare, and land under power. If you can't do this then you can't auto yet. After the 50th practice run you will go "Oh, I get it" and you will realize that you don't need to hit the TH switch until you are 2 feet above the ground and about to bring the power back up. Then you can increase the altitude where you hit the TH switch. This method is great because you need not commit to the auto until everything is looking perfect.

Rule # 11 Do NOT wear your favorite pair of underwear

Let me elaborate on step #10. This is the trick to learning autos without hitting the switch.

First, make your normal curve and your Idle Up curve identical. Should be -4 to -5 on the bottom and full pitch on top. Now set your throttle curve so your throttle does not com on until -2 degrees pitch or so. This should be around 25% stick. Make sure that from the bottom of the stick to 25% the engine is at idle. Make sure your trims are identical between TH and normal mode. Don't worry...we are not going to use the TH switch just yet.

Here's the procedure:

Lesson 1.

If you can't fly nose in yet you are not ready for this.
Fly the helicopter up and downwind. When you get 200 feet up and 200 feet out turn and come back upwind directly at you. You should be at a 45 degree angle up and away. You should have some forward speed after the turn. If not then turn further out and make sure you have at least 15 mph or so forward. Drop the collective stick to the bottom and the heli should fall and the blades should purr. Keep the nose slightly up on the heli by about 10 degrees or so. Let it fall flying toward you. As you get to 35 feet away make sure the heli is going to pass down the field about 20 feet away and about eye level. All of this is the most difficult part of the auto - the consistent approach. As the heli crosses in front of you raise the collective/throttle and fly forward and away. Do this until you can consistently fly the heli past and in front of you at eye level 20 feet away.

The nice thing is that you will hear the purr of the blades in the auto and get used to it. At any sign of something wrong, you simply move the stick up and fly. No need to panic and look for the TH switch. If the heli is falling too fast then bring up the lower pitch to -4 or -3.

Stick with lesson 1 until you can fly all the way down 20 feet in front of you and you are sill at less than 0 pitch before you smoothly bail out.

Lesson 2.
Do exactly as Lesson 1 except land the heli. Bring it down nice and smooth... flare and land. The engine should come online just as you flare and settle it in. DO NOT HIT THE BACK OF THE SKIDS! Practice to where the last thing you do in the flare is flatten out the heli with 0 forward speed at 3 inches above the ground.

Repeat lesson 2 until you can do it in your sleep.

Lesson 3.
Now go in and adjust the throttle curves until the engine does not come online until it gets to 0 pitch. It is not going to hover very nice but that is okay.

Here is the killer - I always thought that since it takes 5 or 6 degrees of positive pitch and 1500 rpm to hover that that is the minimum you must have at the end of the auto to land it. DEAD WRONG. Ron Lund told me that your nicest autos end as you set the heli down at 0 pitch. The key is that you FLY the heli down at negative pitch, lean and flare and stall the heli out of forward flight 2 inches off of the ground at somewhere around 0 pitch.

By now if you have done lesson 1 and 2 for several gallons/tanks then you have likely done this but didn't notice since the engine came online as you were flaring.

So... Don't spend time hovering on the altered throttle curve. Spin it up and fly it out and away and make the same approaches you were doing. Flare all the way to the ground. After awhile you will do an approach...flare... and land and the engine will never have come off idle. You have landed at 0 pitch. You just did an auto!. Repeat until this is the norm.

Lesson 4.
Same as lesson 3 but as you are 4 feet up on the approach hit the TH switch. If you have done all the previous lessons it should be no problem. Learn to keep that finger under the switch and pop it without upsetting the cyclic. Time it where you hit the switch before you cross the 0 pitch and the engine comes online and you are actually doing an auto every time.

Lesson 5
As you confidence builds you can hit the TH switch higher and higher until you are doing complete autos.

I really like this method of learning since you don't just fly up 200 feet, pucker, hit the switch, then hunt frantically for the switch on the way down. You slowly work up to it. I have taught at least 5 people using the method and they like it since there is no pucker factor. I have seen students learn complete confidence doing this and NEVER break a blade or boomstrike. The real truth is that most folks learning autos can't even nail the approach and are truthfully not ready for doing full autos. This method teaches them the approach and builds confidence until they surprise themselves by landing at 0 pitch with no motor having never hit the switch. Then it is just a matter of working up to it.

Good Luck to ya!

Mark C.

05-12-2008 03:01 AM

tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Very nice explanation and I like your approach. It certainly will help those guys that have a problem hitting that "switch"

Pm sent so not to hijack the thread

Tony

--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

05-12-2008 03:17 AM

HOMEPAGE

Zman9545
Senior Heliman
Location: CA, USA

Quote
There is one type of auto I enjoy very much although its very imprecise for spot landing. We call it "diving autos" locally.

Tony,
I want to try this kind of auto. I’ve been persistent on learning autos since day one on my stock wooden blades with my 50 with very little success. I just recently acquired some Radix YB600s, I believe they are called, from a buddy of mine and made a world of difference. In fact, I had so much hang time I could practically grab a sip of my soda while its spooling down. Since the blade change, autos have been loads of fun. I think I’ll try the diving auto you describe next and on to inverted if and when my skills allow. Coming down like an F16, as you put it… should spice things up.

In addition,
I endorse SkyWarps approach. His method helps break the ice and establishes confidence. MarkC's approach is the one that worked for me because I never thought of SkyWarp's method until now. In any event, they are both good techniques.

Zandro

The ONLY way you fail is when you quit.

05-12-2008 03:18 AM

tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Its pretty cool, trust me. The only thing you DONT want to do is come out of the dive with negative pitch. That will kill your forward speed and basically make you auto 3 feet from where you leveled out.

Just one thing. Make sure you have a clear runway. The first time I did that type of auto (I was pretty much used to the 45 deg angle type), I dived 100 feet away from my position and 3 seconds later I was seeing my bird passing by me like an F16 at like 30mph... it landed 100 feet to my left lol. I never expected that it would be possible to hold a heli in a 5 degree nose up attitude, 10 feet from the deck for over 200 feet

Tony

--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

05-12-2008 03:33 AM

HOMEPAGE

Zman9545
Senior Heliman
Location: CA, USA

Wow! I bet that made your butt cheeks pucker up… LoL. After hearing that story, maybe I’ll take a more mild approach because I don’t have that much room to play with. If my heli wonders off that much, It will be imbedded into surrounding trees.

Zandro

The ONLY way you fail is when you quit.

05-12-2008 04:04 AM

Rappy 60
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, Texas

Quote
Hope you don't mind me throwing the technique I use to teach my students.

It works!!! Just finished up a day of nothing but auto's, Auto'ing tank after tank. The key to getting it right is practice, practice, pucker, pucker, practice.

Im adding a Rule
Don't try to auto a Trex450 unless you know what you are doing... unless you like to do blade stop autos from 10Ft

Mark,

You missed a fun day, both me and Rich were shooting auto's one after another.

Dale

Load "*",8,1

05-12-2008 05:54 AM

HOMEPAGE

RotorRage
Veteran
Location: Lake Charles, La.

100% agreeed. Auto should be learned before any other moves. You never know when you might need it but you will ALWAYS be glad you had it. Even a bad auto can save you some coins. I had a vibe fall out of the sky from a swash ball backing out leading to a blade fold(not even a chance to auto). The heli was a total loss. $1100 in the hole... Don't worry she's healing up nice and the doc said he would put a couple extra stitches in for me....

The point is it's a sick feeling watching your pride and joy fall out of the sky. If i could do something to save it i would surly want to know how to do it.

When life gets rough don't pick your nose or you might stab your brain!

05-12-2008 12:24 PM

SkyWarp
Heliman
Location: CA-USA

Quote
The point is it's a sick feeling watching your pride and joy fall out of the sky. If i could do something to save it i would surly want to know how to do it.

I feel you! And for everyone else who passes this up, will come back to take a second look when a similiar experience happens. We have those who prepare for the worst, and those who waits till it happens before taking action. Sorry about your crash.

Quote
Hope you don't mind me throwing the technique I use to teach my students. It has been a largely successful technique

Mark,
Not at all. In fact, thankyou. We are all here to help each other. Different techniques from different pilots. What doesn't work for one pilot, might work for another. We all have different learning abilities so I'm always open to different techniques.

David, Rappy, and Zman
Thanks for joining in. Zandro has brought up a good point on the effects of different blades. And Tony, much respect for your words of wisdom. This is good information. I'm hoping all young pilots read and heed. It would be a shame to pass up all this knowledge.

Century Swift-
When in doubt, pull out. And that applies to everything.

05-12-2008 12:47 PM

davidjc
Heliman
Location: Kentucky

All super good advice and I do appreciate all your time for putting it up here so we can all learn to be better at this and enjoy it more. I have to push myself a little more each time I fly to get my confidence up. First tank of the day to get over the finger jitters, second tank for flying it in towards me (nose in) third tank to settle down ,forth tank is to try something new and so on. Works for me.

Thanks guy's

05-12-2008 02:55 PM

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Beginners Corner > Auto 101

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