RunRyder - Is FPV a good or bad idea for Novice pilots?

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Aerial Photography and Video > Is FPV a good or bad idea for Novice pilots?

ministock22
Senior Heliman
Location: Newcastle, OK

How difficult is flying FPV? I would like to hear the opinions of pilots who have tried this, both Pros and Novice pilots. I am considering investing in one of these systems, also which system would be the best to invest in?

Thanks
Denny

05-05-2008 07:34 AM

HeliEye
New Heliman
Location: Stevenage Hertfordshire UK

A good question, I'm going down the FPV path here on my 3DX 450, putting all the best gear I can get hold of together now.

Initially, I was of the opinion that FPV would be a bit easier, due to the controls always being 'Normal'

Some say it's harder

some clarification and tips from experienced FPV'ers here would be Very Very helpful.

Currently my FPV gear consists of a Sony Pro 550 line HQ1 cam, 5.8GHz TX, 2x 5.8GHz RX's, 2x 8dbi patches, going into Oracle diversity controller, then video is split to LCD glasses (640x480) and a Archos AV500 DVR, also a 4 channel Portable PC based Hi-Res (720x576) DVR (the later will replace the Archos completely when finalised)

There must be someone here that already does FPV that can comment.

Looking forward to replies.. good or bad.

Steve

05-05-2008 11:38 AM

cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

"Is FPV a good or bad idea for Novice pilots?"

Definitly NOT a good idea. See my response to this thread. http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t408037p1/

Learn to fly first, and don't totally rely on FVP. Especially with Heli's.

05-05-2008 01:20 PM

cranester
Veteran
Location: Bogota, Colombia

If you have a spotter, a stabilization system and some practice and ONLY fly in open -non urban areas its not dangerous at all.
Hobby wireless is a good source for the equipment.

FPV flying is quite easy if you fly the heli in FF, if you plan to hover at high altitudes it can be tricky, the heli will drift and it will be very hard for you to tell with your reference points being so far away.
Here's some samples, two with my t-rex 600 and the last one with a nexstar trainer.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=4DksHHIK4G8
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kCuvxE3QsaU
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=u1womqLVgWA

If you are a novice pilot don't try it!!

Juan Crane

05-05-2008 02:56 PM

HOMEPAGE

meflyjeep
Senior Heliman
Location: On the ground and in the air ...

F/S pilots rarely go "under the hood" for IFR flight time in the actual aircraft until well after they have mastered the basic flight principles (often including simulator time) ... are you on a faster learning curve? Granted you will have limited vision as compared to the pilot flying IFR, but it is a close comparison ... another $.02

You did specify novice pilots ... to assume very limited skill set in the r/c aircraft ... in that case ... NO ... unless you are extremely wealthy and have great liability coverage ... not sure about AMA coverage - very unlikely ... someone else may comment on that !

meflyjeep

05-05-2008 03:20 PM

KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

bad idea with helis

If you have some stick time with full size helis and keep the model in visual range you might be able to get it

Try fpv view on realflight sim, record it so you can see how out if control it looks from the outside

05-05-2008 05:55 PM

HOMEPAGE

HeliEye
New Heliman
Location: Stevenage Hertfordshire UK

Ah F/S stick time, many moons ago, in the Army Air Corp, I had about an hour dual controls, on a army turbine scout. Plus hundreds of hours as navigator, Does that count

Steve

05-06-2008 06:12 PM

DANNO
Key Veteran
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida

much harder than flying "3rd" person...just watching the heli....

www.skypiximaging.com

05-06-2008 07:25 PM

HOMEPAGE

ministock22
Senior Heliman
Location: Newcastle, OK

Thanks guys for the quick responses, I appreciate it. I might by a cheap trainer airplane and try it out on this first and see if I can get used to it.

Thanks
Denny

05-06-2008 10:06 PM

ehx
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Minnesota

Other than Cranester, I bet you are getting "don't do it" from people who haven't taken the time to learn FPV. In which case I'm sure it seems difficult and perhaps dangerous to them. In reality, it is not any more so than learning to fly "traditionally" - just different. Either way, for most people learning to fly a heli is considered difficult and requires a lot of practice. Could a novice go straight to FPV? Probably. Would it be easier than learning the traditional way? Maybe a little. People learn in different ways. Don't expect that this is some great shortcut though.

If you want to try an learn to fly a heli by FPV it doesn't have to be anymore dangerous than learning to fly one in the traditional manner. Either way you need a large open area free of people and obstructions. With FPV you will need a good video link, but you won't have to worry about nose-in/tail-in orientation problems. No matter the method you always have the possibility of a crash. When learning to fly, or even if you are a twenty plus year pro pilot, the area around/under the heli needs to be clear of people or property which could be damaged in a crash. Follow this rule and stay low enough to the ground to be well clear of any fullsize aircraft and flying an RC heli is only potentially dangerous to your wallet - and nothing else.

What's a safe way to learn? Do something like the following. If you are really a novice don't try to run before you can even crawl.

First, check your video link. You can do static ground tests. A better method is to put the video system on a R/C car and drive that around to get used to navigating by video.

Next, mount the video system on the heli and range check everything (video link and heli radio) without the heli motor running.

Get some training gear like a Rotopod, attach it, set the radio failsafes to shut off the motor if there is a problem and spin up the heli. Check the video link without moving the heli. Check the radio control movements. You can do this more than once. It might be boring, but give the system a good workout.

Assuming things are working OK you can try to start sliding the heli around a bit. Don't get airborne, just slide around a bit. Later you can try getting the heli light on the skids. You might spend days just on this. Eventually you do a few short hops. These get longer and eventually you are flying.

Be it FPV or traditional flying you don't want to go too far. With FPV if the video link starts to go it's similar to losing visual orientation with traditional flying. You may crash. The only difference here is that with FPV you can potentially get much farther away. Watch this in particular so you don't. Even if you don't lose the video link it's possible to lose track of where the heli is in relation to you. Take it slow and don't push it. Just the sound of the heli blades can give you a lot of information.

05-07-2008 06:00 PM

HeliEye
New Heliman
Location: Stevenage Hertfordshire UK

Many thanks EHX, for an informative and very helpful reply.

Yes we do seem to get 'don't do it' replies. I think safety/insurance things are a bigger deal in USA?

I'm currently hammering Phoenix Sim, big time getting in a Lot of hours with practice flights.

Managed a 13 minute Hover, in the target marker, done loads of auto's, (just in case). Circuits are coming easy now, and most importantly, landing is a Lot more controlled than when I first started, Nose-in needs a bit more polish though.

So far looking good, I will be flying 3rd person initially, just to get a feel for the Heli and checking for best setup, then FPV with the low level training as you suggested, I would have gone through that method anyway, small steps

I have plenty of time.

I look forward to posting some FPV footage, I just can't wait to see the replies

Steve

05-07-2008 07:49 PM

AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote
"Is FPV a good or bad idea for Novice pilots?"

My vote is it is a bad idea. I personally have not tried it and I think I never will. There is too much dependency on low cost video equipment for controlling a heli. Once you loose the video link you are back to conventional flying and if you can’t fly conventional (assuming you are still in visual range) the result is a crash. If you can fly conventional then what is the benefit?

I would say that if you are the type of person who just likes a challenge and that is your reason for trying FPV I think you should invest in a stabilizer at the very least so you have a back up system. Even with a back up stabilizer you may not be able to get the heli home if you have little experience with conventional flying. Problems with the video link will most likely happen at a distance which will be an issued for a novice, stabilizer or not.

Ace
What could be more fun?

05-07-2008 09:13 PM

h2jringo
Senior Heliman
Location: Redmond Oregon

Just to encourage people in one of the fastest growing types of flying )FPV. Me and a friend setup a Slowstick X ( in my gallery). I hadnt flown planes in a while but we took it to the field anyway and with my friend on buddy box I took off with him wearing goggles. I trimed the craft and let him fly on video googles only; the only correction I had to do for him is take it back over to bring it back to the field because it was becoming a dot in the sky hahhah.. (he was having too much fun) Anyway after 12 -15 min he landed it only by goggles and everyone cheered.. It was my turn he took the main transmitter and I put on the googles he got up in the air and wow It was trippy the only thing that was hard was judging how much the plane was tilting on the turns I can see where stabilizer to make sure you level when hands off would come in handy. I flew it for 10 min with him taking it over only once and finally I brought it in for a landing approach it was tricky because field of view on lens shows you are much higher than you are this can be corrected with right lens. I let her just float down to the landing strip and when the cheers went Up I knew I had landed safe and sound by googles success is sure bliss.. What needs to be done for sure while in learning phase is make sure you have a buddie box incase you get into trouble, also its true everyone will not catch on the same to this type of flying. and three make sure you use reliable equipment if you lose video you will lose your aircraft. If you ever tried to switch from googles to visual you will know what Im talking about you will not be able to save your plane unless by sheer luck..

05-08-2008 01:56 AM

ministock22
Senior Heliman
Location: Newcastle, OK

Yes thanks ehs and h2jringo, some really good ideas and very incouraging words. I have done quite a bit of FPV flying in my simulator, how close to the real thing is the simulator? I find flying this way in simulator very easy, so I don't assume that it is simular.

Thanks guys for all the input and ideas!

Denny

05-09-2008 04:35 AM

DKTek
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, FL-USA

After many hours flying Real Flight (FPV Dan in FPV Obstacle Course) on-line in pilots view, I donned a set of goggles and tackled this poor XRB with foam blades and a diversity receiver. YES, in the house with one antenna at each end of my little house. I can fly from room to room without worry and even landed on my own oversized bald head...foam blades and very little mass. I get the same flight time as norm after stripping all the junk off it. Just make sure it is balanced and trimmed out before you put the goggles on. It takes a load off the stress level when you know it'll settle into a nice hover.

After I was comfy with this very stable heli, I built an Easy Star (check gallery) for some fixed wing outdoors FPV fun. Now I'm on to the Vario XLV, another really stable heli without SAS, which is slightly larger than most R/C Heli's.

Point is, this can be as safe as your common sense will allow. I have had great success with FPV. BTW, I've been flying R/C heli's since 1985 on and off again. Also, aside from the fairly harmless XRB, I've never flown FPV without a safety pilot. Just as I did when I was earning my instrument ticket in full scale. That means having the safety pilot on a buddy box or sitting next to you like a couple Lear 23/24 Jet pilots....very close. Back when my vid link was 2.4, I completely lost vid when the other guy powered up his 2.4 radio. I immediately handed off to the safety pilot and all was good.

Take it slow, choose the right set up for your skill level, and please exercise a butt load of caution and common sense. Oh, and have fun.

The beatings will continue until morale improves...

05-09-2008 07:57 AM

ministock22
Senior Heliman
Location: Newcastle, OK

DK, wow thats impressive! What does someone being on the buddy box mean? I have heard these used a few times now. I like your pics in the gallery, why do those cameras on the front of those full size heli's have to be so big? Man your not kidding about the Vario, that thing is big.

Thanks for the info!
Denny

05-09-2008 04:22 PM

AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote
BTW, I've been flying R/C heli's since 1985 on and off again.

And the point is you are not a novice…

Ace
What could be more fun?

05-09-2008 05:33 PM

DKTek
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, FL-USA

Denny, a buddy box is another transmitter that is plugged into the master (the models radio) via a cable. When the master radio TRAINER switch is engaged, the slave radio has full or partial control depending on the setup. If the person flying with the slave radio makes a mistake or in our case has an issue, the master radio's trainer switch is released and it has control again. This system is superior to simply handing the radio over in which time a crash could occur. I use both methods depending on the situation. Fixed wings are a little more forgiving than a hovering heli, depending on altitude.

Ace is correct and I'd recommend that a new FPV pilot be able to at least solo before trying the real deal. A $200 sim is a lot cheaper than a crash depending on what your operating.

If you want to get a feel for the XLV with the Real Flight sim, use the R-22 model from the 4th expansion pack. For pilots view, turn the duel rates on and use idle up 2. I added a turbine for more power and I display the rpm's in the lower, centered, area of my monitor. The reason is the heli flies much better if you manage the collective to stay above 10K rpm, usually around 14500 is best. Also, this teaches better collective management which makes for a smooth flight. With Real Flight on line, you can put yourself on board as a passenger on someone elses model. I've shown a few how smooth a flight can be and that a solid hover is very possible. A solid hover means holding position over a single spot. A great method to gaining full control is to practice flying down the center line of the runway, keeping it centered. There's a lot of guys that fly pretty good but they are somewhat still riding the bull instead of having absolute control and putting the heli EXACTLY where YOU want it instead of drifting around and calling it a good hover. Practice, practice, and then do it some more. REMEMBER, the reset button doesn't cost anything. If you ever see FPV Obstacle Course hosted, pop in and I'll be happy to demonstrate. I'll be the guy flying the rings inverted or landing on the side of buildings like a bug. I love this hobby

.

The beatings will continue until morale improves...

05-10-2008 10:15 PM

Raptor3DPilot
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Here's an example of a FPV crash...

Kinda long, but skip to the end.