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HeliHobby . Ron’s HeliProz South . Century Helicopter

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Main Discussion > Young pilots & helicopters.
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

Quote 
100% Agree...Now, how much common sense does a 4 year old have?

Not much! 4 years of experience worth to be exact. Common sense is an acquired skill developed over time. This comes in handy when not all things are black and white.

What is nice about flying RC is that rules are clearly black and white.

No flying nearer than runway centerline. It is a simple concept but works so well with helis safetywise. Kids who fly stick to this rule as if it was the end of the world.

Many adults will ignore (arrogance) or violate (lack of skill) this simple rule. Kids have no ego so they will not ignore and they will not violate because they have skills (we are not talking about all kids).

Bottom line is that no one is above safety. If they posess necessary skills (implying flying within safety boundary) they should be allowed to fly. People shouldn't be lenient on them when they violate rules and they shoudn't be banned before they even break the rules because they MIGHT break the rules.

More often than not, kids will be pointing fingers at you for violating the rules not the other way around.

www.justinchi.com
05-02-2008 04:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JeffM1999
Senior Heliman
Location: Thornton, CO

Very interersting conversation. I have watched several videos of Justin and he is obviously a very skilled pilot. I say let the young kids fly as long as they are safe. With adults, at least at the fields I fly at, everyone is allowed to fly until they prove they are unsafe, not the other way around. Safety is expected and understood, and everyone gets the benefit of the doubt until they prove that they are not a safe pilot. I think that should extend to kids as well. If they prove they are not safe, maybe then they should be put on a Buddy Box until they are a little more skilled.

While we are on the subject, I recently received my '08 AMA and I was reading the bottom of the page that the card comes attached to, and it said that the minimum age for pilots is 6 years old. Is there a junior level membership that kids under 6 can get or something, or are they just not allowed to be an AMA member? And if that is the case, how do kids like Justin get to fly at AMA sanctioned events?

That last part is just for my curiosity. I think this topic is very interesting. I can see both sides, but I lean towards letting them fly if they are safe.

________________
Magnum Fuels
05-02-2008 04:36 PM
 
 
cub2000
Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

Here's the differerence:

Kids will focus on improving flying skills and abiding by the rules.

Adults (some) will focus more on getting around the rules and throwing blames, criticisms. You often find these guys bitch on just about anything in life, not just kids flying helis.
05-02-2008 04:39 PM
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

whirlyspud:

Quote 
You should not teach these kids about safety. They will become your worst nightmare and become your personal safety police and take a way all your carefree fun. It is no fun being called out by a 5 year old that you did a dangerous move.
Don't EVER tell them that it is dangerous to fly closer than the center line of the runway. Because, they will become a tape recorder and play back that message everytime anyone crosses that line which will be many many times a day.

I wrote this passage because I'm constantly being called out by my son in a repremanding tone. Trust me! You don't want a 5 year old to tell you "That was dangerous Dad!" It doesn't do much for your ego. However, as annoying as that sounds, it enforces my trust in my son ever more.

www.justinchi.com
05-02-2008 04:39 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

red_z06

Quote 
No flying nearer than runway centerline. It is a simple concept but works so well with helis safetywise. Kids who fly stick to this rule as if it was the end of the world.

Then how did he hit someone at NEAT?

Quote 
He then proceeded to takeoff and started back on his manuevers. It was rainbowish maneuver but instead of going from left to right in front of him, it was arcing toward him high above and went over our heads and crashed 5feet past the crowd control net.

Starting to see my point?
05-02-2008 05:05 PM
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

I don't have a problem with someone that is young flying. I actually think it is pretty amazing. If I felt confident enough in my child's ability to fly in "public", then I would let them. I think this "sue happy" world has lost the concept of common sense, and there is always someone now that wants to "raise the red flag", or black their eyes with their knees because something doesn't fit into "their" vision of what is normal or safe. Some here seem to think that these 4 and 5 year olds are the "norm". These guys are the EXCEPTION to the norm. I really don't think that there is going to be an influx of 4 and 5 year olds at the field doing mad 3d any time soon......but there could be a few. Neither one of the little guys mentioned seem to have idiots for dads, and I feel that the dads have accessed the risk situation......afterall at this point the parents are the "responsible party". I don't think that either of these guys would let their children fly if, especially in public, if they didn't feel that the child was capable.
At any rate....if any of you guys with your little heli prodigys can't find somewhere to fly, you can come to the farm where I fly. We'll see if the cows have a problem with it...

Gas is Great
Quick OD 26
05-02-2008 05:07 PM
 
 
whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

"Then how did he hit someone at NEAT?"

Maybe he had radio failure. Have you ever had a radio failure? They do not happen all that often, but when they do, it is the worst feeling you will ever have. Why? Because there is not a damn thing anyone can do at that point other than try to stay out of harms way and make it know to the others around that the machine it out of control.

Mike
05-02-2008 05:16 PM
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

shuttle pilot:

Quote 
I really don't think that there is going to be an influx of 4 and 5 year olds at the field doing mad 3d any time soon......

We are lucky so far regarding this becasue heli flying isn't a main stream nor a money maker. This means that the kid's dads will evaluate the safety aspects more than any other.

Sadly, this isn't the case for the Golf or any other high profile sports.There will be many kids who will participate in these sports as a youngster not because of their own wishes but because their "soccer dads" made them. Why? there is fame and fortune to be had.

www.justinchi.com
05-02-2008 05:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dood
Key Veteran
Location: America's Dairyland

So Justin someone at NEAT. And people still are uptight about it.
Radio failure? I wasnt there. I wasn't flying the model. I have no idea.

Anyone ever look in the safety forum?
There are dozens of stories of how people got hit by helicopters, whether they hit themselves or somebody else.
There are probably 10 times the stories (or more) that you'll never hear about.
Because they are too embarrassed to tell them.
And don't forget there were 2 incidents at the jamboree last year, both incidents the model was being flown by an experienced accomplished pilot.

It seems in all or most of those incidents, the model was piloted by an adult.


It just goes to show that ANYONE can make mistakes, or display a lack of good judgement.

Im not Mr. Lebowski, YOU'RE Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dood! So thats what you'll call me
05-02-2008 05:32 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
OK HELI
Senior Heliman
Location: Enid,OK-USA

this thread has only been talking about why kids should or should not fly.
we keep refering back to the mental decisions made between a 4yr old and a 30yr old.
I would like to tell you about my experience with my friend thats 29.
he has a 90 size heli with a OS70 in it. I watched him crash 3 times and immediately he blamed it on some kind of failure, whereas I was watching the whole time and tell him it was his own dumb thumbs. but the point I'm making refers to the statement he made
" I need to get a bigger motor in my heli so it won't bog down and I can fly above my skill level" WTF!
I don't believe you would ever hear a kid say something like that.

Raptor 50 Titan with DX7, GY401, and TT Redline 53 is Awsome!
05-02-2008 05:43 PM
 
 
FBoss
Senior Heliman
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

I have worked in Industrial maintenance for 20 years, seen that mind set many times. I call it, "Get a bigger Hammer" syndrome.
Its prevelant and destructive. Try to tell the GBH guy anything and what do you know, they already know it all.
Very hard to combat

The good ole times are now ,000132
05-02-2008 05:52 PM
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

Quote 
" I need to get a bigger motor in my heli so it won't bog down and I can fly above my skill level"

EXACTLY!!! One of the few times I have been at a club I saw this guy come out with a very nice raptor 60....had all the metal you could stand, nice set of carbons and so on. He took it up and did something that kinda looked 3d...ish over the flight line then some floops and rolls....yes I said floops. Got the heli out over the runway, turned nose in and lost it.....then everyone came out from under the shed.... Of course he immediately said that he lost the tail servo. I don't think you will ever hear one of these kids that are flying say that......at least not until they are "trained" to by an adult....

Gas is Great
Quick OD 26
05-02-2008 06:53 PM
 
 
fiveoboy01
Senior Heliman
Location: Waunakee, WI - USA

Quote 
It just goes to show that ANYONE can make mistakes, or display a lack of good judgement.

Exactly...

People of ALL ages hurt others with R/C helis or planks.

Perhaps we should move to limit R/C aircraft flying altogether

Trex 450SA blinged, Trex 600N, DX7
05-02-2008 06:53 PM
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Actually, according to his fathers comments at the time, it probably wasn't radio failure or interferance.

Quote 
Since we were using 2.4GHz Spektrum, radio lockout will be ruled out.
I do not know if he had control or not for that last 1sec as it was too quick for me to judge or analyze. It maybe pilot error or equipment failure but either case ultimately we are responsible for the injury.


Probably one of those things that after the crash it would be to hard to determine what failed if something did. I am sure the transmitter radio and reciver both worked after the crash or we whould have heard something about that if they didn't. I am sure the servos were toast.

"Looks like you've won this round, Gravity"
05-02-2008 07:02 PM
 
 
quattrokid73
Veteran
Location: Huntingdon Valley, PA, USA

Quote 
Quote
one time i had a screw sucked into my motor when i was in a low inverted hover near people and cars.

Why on earth would you as an adult do something that stupid? I sure wouldnt want you flying at our field either.

I was flying in front of the flight line, low and inverted, as most everyone will do at one point or another. Nothing inherently unsafe about this. The mechanical issue that occurred was by chance. I was able to settle things down though and do my best to keep myself and everyone and their belongings safe. It's part of flying.

Aero-Model/Hacker Brushless/Mikado 2007
05-02-2008 07:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

The radio and the heli is still in NEAT site and still being investigated. I have not heard one way or another regarding these yet. The claim is being handled by my homeowner and AMA together.

According to the investigator, there were no negligence based on the eyewitnesses and no question regarding the pilot's ability (better than 99% of the pilots that were flying at NEAT that day).

They do have the accident video in their possession but not available to public.

At this moment, I will not speculate as to the cause but they can be

1. Pilot error (very unlikely based on ALL his flights but possible)
2. 2.4 Lockout or Reset (Low Voltage Reset Possible but Lockout probably not - This is before Spektrum did their QC mod)
3. Mechanical failure (possible but not likely)

This is based on all the mechnical failures (links and tail) I've seen that tend to go straight down with almost alway some jerkyness caused by the pilot attempting to correct.

I will bet the servos are in perfect condition as these have titanium gears that are 48X stronger than nylon and 4x stronger than metal gears (typically brass)

www.justinchi.com
05-02-2008 07:31 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

whirlyspud

Quote 
Maybe he had radio failure

Possible, but so is doing something abnormal and it just getting away from him.

Dood

Quote 
It just goes to show that ANYONE can make mistakes, or display a lack of good judgement.

Yes, but here his father had said he does not cross the flight line, yet he did cross the flight line. In fact the maneuver he describes was at the flight line and not what he normally does.

The real question is not can Justin fly....That is not in question at all. It is does he have the experience and judgment needed to handle a situation when it goes bad. Does he really understand the amount of damage that he can do with one of these?

When his heli hit the behind the crowd....Was his first thought:

1. Damn I crashed.

or

2. Oh God, did I hit anyone?

That is the difference. When he has the choice, will he try to save his heli, or put it down to be safe?

Yes, we ALL know adults that are not quick enough to make that choice....What makes any of us think any 4 year old is mature enough to be able to make that call?

Also, I never said he should not be allowed to fly....I do question his flying at an event filled with people and situations and distractions that cannot be controlled.

I take my 6 year old nephew shooting. But he only gets to shoot if the conditions are correct and I can minimize the possibility of distractions. He is not allowed to be around a fire arm without supervision...Even if I know for a fact that there is no ammo around.

He is a pretty good shot, but I don't let him on the line if someone else is shooting FA, or a .50 cal or anything else that might draw his attention from the task or distract him.

I love how some try to claim anyone that sees a problem must be jealous. Is it not possible that since we are not emotionally connected to the situation that we can see issues that others choose to ignore?

Is it not possible that we are not caught up in the emotions of wishing we were him?

I love how some claim that anyone that can see a problem here must be stupid.
05-02-2008 10:57 PM
 
 
Way2slow
Senior Heliman
Location: Jeffersonville Ga

In the late 70's I was stationed in Aviano Italy. My Fiat (made in Italy) was hit in the front end by a youg Italian boy playing ralley racer on a dirt road in his Fiat 500. I saw him coming and had moved all the way over until my right side was in the ditch and 2/3rds of the road was open for him but he lost control and hit me. The Carabinieri (police) said it was my fault because my car (a Fiat) was too big for the road. That was his way of saying if I had been back in the US where I belonged the boy could not have hit me so it had to be my fault.
05-02-2008 11:23 PM
 
 
Mutt
Veteran
Location: t ca usa

Quote 
in a low inverted hover near people and cars.
the way you stated this was as your flying in the parking lot or somewheres next to people and cars.


Quote 
was flying in front of the flight line,
Now if you would of posted that along with what you said I wouldnt of even questioned your response.
05-03-2008 01:27 AM
 
 
white chocolate
Key Veteran
Location: Baltimore, Md.

Just a thought. But say your out at the field "on your own willingness to be hit by a heli ofcourse" and your watching with your 2 year old. Your kid knocks over a drink or something and while you take your eyes off the heli for a minute, the 4 year old kid that is flying really has to pee. He drops the controller and runs for the bathroom in that minute that you werent looking cause he doesnt know any better. Now within that minute you took your eyes off the heli it comes down and hits your 2 year old kid and probably would kill him. Now your saying that hey its ok its your own fault for being there????????? Cmon man get real. 4 year olds shouldnt be flying bottom line as the same as 10 year olds cant drive.

Its real easy to say hey Im cool with a 4 year old flying untill the 4 year old hits ya!! Im sure your view on that subject would change if you were the one that got hit by a kid with no idea what he just did!

Team Raptor
Radix
TEAM MAPTERGY...Definitely nuff said.....
05-03-2008 02:03 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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