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e-Minicopter Joker > MJ2 Tail Wag... another one
 
 
snurre
Heliman
Location: Sweden, Stockholm

Noobs,
Holding my breath...


I will stay tuned.

By the way, apart from the tail wagging, is your heli reasonably free of vibrations?
I had some issue with moderate roll vibrations inducing tail wag when I activated the horizontal stabilization in HC Pro, using the internal tail gyro... This fenomena still being investigated, awaiting answer from Captron developer.
05-07-2008 12:01 AM
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Ya it's reasonably free of vibrations since I've changed most of the parts.
05-07-2008 12:12 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
krav
Heliman
Location: Portsmouth - UK

hey nooobs, have you got it fixed, no more waggles?

If you've changed everything and it still gives a tail wag then there is one other thing to check and that is the HTI, every transmitter has one and it is normally very reliable but sometimes they have been know to give the occasional strange movement.

No doubt you want to know what the HTI is?

Human Transmitter Interface (HTI)

Your thumb


Hope you got it sorted.

I've just arrived home and am busy ordering the spares to get my MJ up in the air again.

The difference between a genius and a fool is that a genius has limitations.
05-07-2008 11:40 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Seablade
Veteran
Location: floating around

hey noobs...if your MJ-2 tail is wagging...it's probably nothing wrong at all...it's just happy to see you!

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"
05-07-2008 05:14 PM
 
 
snurre
Heliman
Location: Sweden, Stockholm

Forgot to mention the fundamenta...

Noobs,
I just realize that nowhere in this thread do you mention the status of your tail linkage . As this is the major root cause of poor tail holding performance I just have to ask, if you snap off the tail linkage from the tail servo and just move the pushrod by hand, does it move very easily and smoothly? If not, this is most likely the source of your problem.
If you find it to not run easily you just have to be systematic and track down exactly where the friction sits. Fix it and the tail will be steady. Please keep us posted.
05-07-2008 09:39 PM
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Hey guys thank you for all your feedback.

Well here it is...

I changed the one way bearing and the tail wag did reduce a bit but it's still there.

I inspected the tail linkages. They were ok but not as loose as they should have been. So I loosened them a bit and the tail held better but there was still a bit more wag.

I took the tail apart and noticed the inner brass slider (#342) was not screwed all the way into the tail pitch slider. There was a bit of play when the brass slider would slide right/left. I screwed it in just a bit more until there was no play and was still able to rotate freely. The tail held better but I'm still not satisfied.

It is holding better but not rock solid. I'm using the 105 plastic tail blades. I wonder if the 120 will make a difference. I use to have 130 and 120 but both broke in the last 4 crashes.

Mmmmmm... getting closer...
05-08-2008 01:16 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BungeeMike
Senior Heliman
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Are you getting the wag with the camera mount on, off or both? I had similar problem with an under slung mount and found the slop in the mount and a loose screw on the landing gear was causing the problem.
My thoughts
Bungee
05-08-2008 03:30 AM
 
 
snurre
Heliman
Location: Sweden, Stockholm

Noobs,
On the MJ2 the 122 mm carbon tailblades are default, so in order to rule out the possibility of 105mm being the problem now, I would try to get a new pair of original blades.
The tail linkage should be really low friction in all movement range. Ball links, tail blade bearing packs, slider, crank bearing, all!
You could do the following test (on ground, no rpm). Instead of controlling the tail from left stick, temporarily connect it to a switch channel, so you can create a sudden step command between the extremes of movement range. When you flip the switch back and forth the linkage and slider should move so rapidly so it is impossible to follow the movement with the eye.
I had a strange problem some time ago with a high performance Futaba tail servo that became slow. I still have not figured out why, but I replaced it and then tail control is perfect again.

A friend of mine had tail wagging on his MJ2, we tracked it down to exessive locktite in one tail blade bearing pack, obstructing the free movement of the inner trust bearing ring, resulting in friction enough to slow down control speed of blade pitch. Cleaned it and tail control was normal!

There are so many sources of malfunctions. I think stubborness (patience?) is a big asset when into RC-flying, choppers in particular...
05-08-2008 09:17 AM
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Bungee

Thanks for the tip. There is no mount yet on this MJ2. (on its way) The only mod on this heli is the flybarless so far. Everything else is the default MJ2. I did inspect the rest of the heli for any loose screws upon reading your post.

Snure

I'll get the 122 blades. I'll try your "switch" test.


The only thing I haven't taken apart is the blade grip assembly. I know that's moving freely so I didn't feel that would cause the tail wag.

Well I'll take the entire tail assembly apart and start from scratch.
05-08-2008 12:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
daytonabeach
Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

Rosauro, that friend of Snurre is me
No tail wagging no more...

Snurre is also the one helped me with the Profi installation, great big thanks to him, couldnt done it without him
Still in trimming phase, but basics works fine, almost 10 min flight time in just hover flight with my A123 cells, cant complain, takeoff weight w/o camera mount inc Profi is now 6.5 kg

That big yellow joker are now also flybarless

I wont have time to test more until this weekend, getting back with more info later, but so far so good

Any update from Rhett?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...
05-08-2008 06:40 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rroback
Key Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

The only update is that my heli is the most disassembled since I first got the mj2! I have a package coming form fxaeromodels-noobs- and from Gerd. Basically, I had the wrong head, so Gerd is sending me the correct one. I then decided to replace all the bearings, to hopefully get rid of a vibration, and since it's been 2 years. In taking the heli apart, I found the little gear that drive the tail belt to be rotating in a very wobbly fashion, so I had to get another one of those. Sorry for the delays,it's more frustrating for me, then you! I should have everything basically ready ( depending on when I get the bearing from noobs) by next week, but I've got to see when the head will come from Gerd ( hopefully late next week). After that, I plan on shooting a lot of profi videos.

Rhett... I can't fly, luckily the HC Profi Can!
05-08-2008 06:45 PM
 
 
rroback
Key Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

btw, one thing I forgot to add, what's your headspeed? I think a big problem is that we run super slow headspeed on the maxi, and that makes the tail wag more ( in my testing).

Rhett... I can't fly, luckily the HC Profi Can!
05-08-2008 06:46 PM
 
 
daytonabeach
Veteran
Location: Oslo, Norway

My or Ross head speed?
Mine is now 1405, no wagging...

Have you experienced any rapid wagging when internal gyro gain is set to a value that makes the tail rock stable?

We tried internal gyro gain on 70, but when activating poss mode, we got rapid wagging, reduced to 67, fine, but then the tail floats more and not so stable...

Whats your gain on internal gyro?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...
05-08-2008 06:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Rhett

Your bearing should arrive tomorrow; latest Monday. I went for registered mail and Xpresspost. I didn't want you to wait. Don't worry about it. It's on me.

Chris you're in good hands with Snure. Have you got a practice heli yet?


K here's an update on the never ending saga...

My headspeed was at 1250 with the 105 tail blades. So I changed it to 110. Still wags very little. So I raised the head speed to 1450 and I would say it's almost perfect. ...99% steady. I can still see a tiny tiny bit of wag still but a hell of an improvement. So maybe the 122 tail blades might do the trick for me.

The ESC I'm using now is a PowerJazz. Kraz thanks for the tip on the program card. I wouldn't have known about that. Well I'm going to switch it back to the Schulze ESC and see if it will hold the same. I'll need the PowerJazz on another heli...

I'll keep you guys posted...
05-08-2008 11:36 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rroback
Key Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

So headspeed is the key. Makes sense. I think we need to change the tail pinion out to one with more teeth. I believe Tab has done that on his helis.

Rhett... I can't fly, luckily the HC Profi Can!
05-09-2008 04:03 AM
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Rhett

I think you caught onto something. You're right.

My first MJ2 had a 16T tail pinion and the tail held solid with a 401. I'm using a 611 on this MJ2 and a 14T pinion and I would have imagined that it would hold better.

We have to remember to also change the brass roller to a 9mm.

I think Tabb flies a Joker2 with his CF30. ...or it was an MJ2 converted to a Joker2 something like that.

So back to a 16T?
05-09-2008 04:35 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rroback
Key Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

It would be nice if someone could tach the tail of this heli, and compare it to other larger helis ( any 90 size heli, really). I'm not sure if the 16t is too much, but for those running near 1200 rpm headspeeds( like me, for a while), a 16t might be worth it.

Rhett... I can't fly, luckily the HC Profi Can!
05-09-2008 07:43 AM
 
 
Panomaniac
Senior Heliman
Location: Croatia - Adriatic coast

I had tail wagging on MJ2 since first day. I have tried changing gain, replaced gyro, swithed to plastic blades... Finaly, reading this post, snurre made me rethink again about my tail linkages. I have found 3 tigter links (the one on tail arm, and those two on slider. After few minutes of work with ball resizing tool, i have managed to reduce tension in tail linkage, and guess what: Tail is perfect now Also, Maxi flies beautifull with HC rigid...
05-11-2008 08:23 PM
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Snure sure did help in getting rid most of my tail wag. Just waiting on my 122 tail blades to arrive. Thank you Snure!
05-12-2008 01:53 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
snurre
Heliman
Location: Sweden, Stockholm

I am happy to read about your progress.
And you are welcome, guys!
05-14-2008 01:30 AM
 
 
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e-Minicopter Joker > MJ2 Tail Wag... another one
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