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Ron’s HeliProz South . Century Helicopter . MTA Hobbies

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Beginners Corner > First flight. How freaking cool...
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

She flies again. Today I really got out there and was flying around back and forth. I do, however, have another problem. When the heli gets high up, I just cannot bring the damn thing back down. I need to figure out how to program my curves better. Can you guys simply give me some values? I have 5-point curves for both normal and idle-up. Help me program this thing so I can bring the bird back down when I need it to come down.
06-02-2008 07:36 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

I run mine at -4 to +10 in normal and -10 to +10 in ST1. For the ST1 curve, its just a straight linear curve: 0 - 100. For the normal curve you are just going to need to decide what pitch you want at low stick, get out the pitch gauge and set it to your desired low stick pitch, place it on the blades with everything lined up and raise the first pitch curve point until you hit your desired pitch. Set point 2 to be halfway between whatever you come up with for point 1 and point 3 (assuming 50 for point 3).
06-02-2008 08:56 PM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

Awesome, thanks. I'll do that. What about throttle curves? It seemed like my headspeed got really low when I was trying to come back down, which made the cyclic control go all to hell.

And when do I switch into idle up? I flipped the switch once or twice today when I was up pretty high to see what would happen, and hte headspeed went freaking crazy high and the bird started to climb. I was about mid-stick. I think my idle up curves are throttle: 100-90-85-90-100 and collective: 0-25-50-75-100.
06-02-2008 10:10 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

I think its more common to use a more linear throttle curve for idle up. so probably either 100 90 80 90 100 or 100 92.5 85 92.5 100

You want your normal throttle curve to match idle up from mid stick up so that you don't get a big throttle jump when you click over to idle up, so you probably want something like:

0 50 80 90 100 or 0 50 85 92.5 100 (depending on what you set idle up to).

I forgot to mention it in my above post, but you want your normal pitch curve to match idle up from midstick up. So assuming you come up with 40% for low stick (it could be 30 or 45, just depends on what you get out of pitch guage), you would have a normal pitch curve like:

40 45 50 75 100

and idle up would just be 0 25 50 75 100
06-02-2008 10:49 PM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

You rock. Thank you. I'm going to sit down later tonight with my pitch guage and sort all of this out using your numbers and advice.

By the sounds of it, when I switch into idle up from normal mid-flight, the bird shouldn't really start frantically climbing or anything. Should the headspeed increase conspicously?

Edit: Rereading your post a few more times I see the obvious answer. Idle up matches normal on both pitch and throttle. Switching to idle up shouldn't do anything when I'm above midstick.

So I have to ask: why even use normal mode? Why not always use idle up?
06-03-2008 12:12 AM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

I have mine set identically (pitch and throttle) at midstick and above. So when hovering right side up, I can toggle back and forth as much as I want between normal and idle up and there is no change at all in pitch or throttle. The only different sound I hear is the switch clicking .

One other thing to check -- check your trims in all flight modes and make sure they are the same. Not sure what Tx you have but on my DX7, each flight mode (normal, ST1, ST2, and Throttle Hold) can each have its own trim settings.

Also if your TX has 2 stunt modes (ST1 = idle up, ST2 = idle up 2), unless you really need ST2 to be different, I would just set ST2 to be identical to ST1. That way when you flip the switch, if you get a little over zealous and overshoot the mark, your heli won't jump on you.
06-03-2008 12:18 AM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

Quote 
So I have to ask: why even use normal mode? Why not always use idle up?

Most people do only use idle up for flying once they get beyond just hovering. Normal is useful in the beginning when you are still learning to prevent you from panicking and pulling all the way back on the collective. In normal this would just drop pitch to -4 or so and kill the throttle. In idle up it would drive your heli into the ground. Both could/probably would end up in a crash but the damage would be much greater if you were in idle up.
06-03-2008 12:21 AM
 
 
airborne r/c
Senior Heliman
Location: Woodward, Okla - Stationed in Korea

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!! Your one of us now Welcome to the club. I been into helios for about the las 2 years and loving it myself. It wont be long you will be ditching the traning gear, doing patterns and working the nerve up for your first flip and roll. As far as upgrading an getting all the new metal parts go for it just save them till after you need them. Wrecks are going to happen, Like the guy that trained me said "Take offs are Opitional Landing are Mandarory. I saved all my upgrades till after I trashed the plactic stuff. As loging your flights that is up to you all I do is keep records of gallons of gas I burn. After every four gallons I completely tare them apart clean, add new locktight, replace any hardware that was loose and getting wore out, and after eight gallons I pull the engines apart to clean it to keep it going strong.

Take offs are Optional, Landings are Mandatory
06-03-2008 12:54 AM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

Thanks. Yeah, I ditched the training gear awhile ago and I'm flying around pretty well. I have no plastic on the heli, its all metal.

NMRS- I got my curves set as you've suggested. Thanks. I'll report back when I've tried messing around in the air. Logic tells me that if I'm at or above midstick now, there should be no difference in the heli when I switch to idle up.
06-03-2008 01:48 AM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

Holy headspeed, Batman!

I tried flying today. In normal mode, the headspeed is freaking ballistic compared to what I was flying with before. The heli lifts off the ground just over midstick, but the tail wobbles like crazy! The tail actually makes it unflyable, and I brought it back down as controlled as I could.

So...penny for someone's thoughts? I've already put a piece of fuel tubing on the pitch slider thing to remove play from that. Maybe I need to adjust my gain?
06-03-2008 04:02 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

I'd start with the gain -- that is the standard cause of tail wagging. If it makes you feel better I am going through similar pain myself trying to get my gyro gain dialed in correctly.
06-03-2008 04:15 PM
 
 
airborne r/c
Senior Heliman
Location: Woodward, Okla - Stationed in Korea

With my setup Idleup 1 matches my normal mode except my pitch curve gives me +10 to -10deg of pitch and at midstick my engine is at 50% then all the way up and down gives it 100%. In Idleup 2 my pitch curve stays the same and midstick my engine is 65 to 70% increasing my head speed from 1700 to 2100rpm making the helio a bit harder to control espacily at a hover. It also turns my heading lock on my 401 gyro off allowing my tail to weather vane.

What kind of servo do you have on your tail? It sounds like your tail cant keep up with your head causing it to kick back and forth.

Take offs are Optional, Landings are Mandatory
06-03-2008 04:18 PM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

Thanks. I'll mess with the gain a bit. Stupid question - do I increase or decrease the gain to get rid of wagging? (my gut says to decrease it, but I'll hold off until I hear back).

Do you guys really run headspeeds this high? I don't have a tach, but the curve is putting my motor at 80-95% the max rpm. It seems like its really high...
06-03-2008 04:19 PM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

I have a 9650 on the tail. Pretty common, no?

Maybe I just need to bring the headspeed back down? Hell, I don't know. I'll wait until I hear from you all and then decide how to get back in the air.
06-03-2008 04:21 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

I run my head pretty high. I have my esc set to governor mode and have a straight 90% throttle curve across all flight modes (well point one in Normal is 0, but everything else is 90). Before I switched to governor, I ran:

Normal: 0 50 85 92.5 100
ST1 and ST2: 100 92.5 85 92.5 100
06-03-2008 04:48 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

The sound from the high headspeed did freak me out a bit at first, but now I am used to it. My brother-in-law is still a little freaked out when he hears it spin up. It definitely sounds as if it could do a fair bit of damage if it hit something (or heaven forbid someone).
06-03-2008 04:51 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

Quote 
Stupid question - do I increase or decrease the gain to get rid of wagging?

Lower it. You generally want it 3 - 5 points below the point of wagging.

Quote 
I have a 9650 on the tail. Pretty common, no?
Definitely very common. That tail servo should work fine.
06-03-2008 04:54 PM
 
 
airborne r/c
Senior Heliman
Location: Woodward, Okla - Stationed in Korea

Your servo has a speed of .14 at 4.8v or .11 at 6v. Thats not bad at all I like to get servos that are .10 at 4.8v or faster. With the speed of your servo I think slowing your head speed should do what you need.
nmrs has a good start point for you. You will find a setup for your curves that will work for you.

Take offs are Optional, Landings are Mandatory
06-03-2008 05:04 PM
 
 
Triguy
Heliman
Location: Nevada, USA

Well... all I can say is, "wow."

I'm not into self-degredation, but I'm an idiot. I dove into my radio manual and settings, and both of my gyro settings in my radio were set at 0%. No wonder at high headspeeds wagging was happening. I toyed around with the settings for one of the two settings (I can apparently set two different gyro settings by switching a switch on the radio itself), and eventually settled on a gyro setting around 70%. The tail is freaking LOCKED into place. I'm a bit amazed, really.

So, someone tell me: what the hell is the other gyro setting for? When I flip that switch on the radio, the other setting is engaged - what would this be for?

I'm still uncomfortable with the headspeed. I really need a tach. Seems ultra-fast to me.

As always, thanks for everyone's input as I try to learn all of this...
06-04-2008 12:22 AM
 
 
airborne r/c
Senior Heliman
Location: Woodward, Okla - Stationed in Korea

What kinda of Gyro do you have. I am running a Futaba 401 It has a heading lock mode above the 50% setting in the TX, the second setting is for doing aerobatics with the gyro setting below 49% witch turns the heading lock off and allows the tail to weather vain behind the nose in flight.

Take offs are Optional, Landings are Mandatory
06-04-2008 02:18 AM
 
 
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Model Rectifier Corp . PowerHelis . JR-Spektrum

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Beginners Corner > First flight. How freaking cool...
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