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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Wet (hot) start with a wren
 
 
mpcorley71
New Heliman
Location: Suisun City, CA - USA

Ok,
Took the century/wren out for some flying yesterday... 3rd flight of the day, I was trying to get rid of some slow tail drift (mechanical adjustment, annoying but not hard to deal with)... started and ran it for a few minutes, shut it down and let it cool off for about 15 minutes while moving the tail servo around... fired it back up and I had a flame-thrower instead of a turbine. Needless to say, never having had that happen before, I shut it down and blew out the subsequent flames that melted the propane and fuel lines (while hoping dearly that the whole thing didn't melt or explode). (scratch one fiberglass canopy). I was wondering if anyone had used/considered anything better than the green tubing for fuel/propane lines. Would be pretty to have some braided lines or hard line, and they wouldn't melt... suggestions anyone?


-mike
04-13-2008 11:12 AM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

Sounds like you have your propane valve open too much. That can lead to some flames shooting out the exhaust. How many turns is it open? You didn't end up priming it with fuel by accident did you?

While I've had a few flames during start up on occasion, its never melted anything. How are your lines run? You should keep them clear of the exhaust as much as possible. If they were close enough to melt when it was shooting flames, they are too close for normal running.

The only time I've ever melted lines was a fire after a crash when the tanks broke free and a fuel line touched the exhaust and then dripped down.

Post some pictures of your set up when you get it back together so you can show us how your fuel and propane lines are running.

Always make sure you have a fire extinguisher available so you can put a fire out quickly. It's an AMA requirement. I've had to put out a grass fire when starting up in the middle of a dry summer. Also make sure it's a CO2, nothing else or you will destroy the engine.

That will help see if there is any issue with where they are located.

Lou

Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-13-2008 02:59 PM
 
 
Doug C
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern CA

I am the other half of that flaming experience, after the startup, as the turbine spun up we started hearing popping noises from the exhaust and spurts of flame, and could see flame inside the exhaust and second stage vane area, Mike shut it down and we had a bit of fire under the turbine, turns out it was the heat shield wrap around the section that separates the engine from the second stage that was burning, the flame from that took out the propane line that runs under the turbine near the front,( the flame was "piped" into that area by the presence of the canopy, not by the amount of fire)

We think we may have had excess kero after the previous run that had seeped through the hole that the egt sensor sits in, into the heat wrap.

Question, is it necessary for the sensor to be mounted at the underside rather then the top of the system, same question holds for the lines as the enter the front of the fod screen into the engine. I guess what I am asking is , is the Wren sensitive to where "top" or "Bottom" is, is there a "up" to the thing?
04-13-2008 03:17 PM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

Dougc and Mike,

I don't think that the Wren is sensitive to any particular position. After all we do loops, rolls, inverted and it runs fine. I think the reasoning behind the EGT on teh bottom has to do with any heat coming out the hole goes out the bottom of the frame and doesn't hurt anything. I'm not familiar with the heli you have the Wren in so I don't understand why you have a heat shield on the bottom.

I do get some popping on the first start up of the day and it is the propane that does that. Those flames aren't big and don't do any damage.

I'm concerned that you had raw Kero coming out the EGT hole. I've never had that or spoke to anyone that has had that problem. It almost sounds like a bad fuel solenoid. Is it leaking after shut down? You'd see some smoke if it were after shut down. The other thing that could be happening is that you are inadvertently priming the engine by holding the throttle up after arming it. That would definitely get you a hot start. Read the manual and make sure you are not telling the FADEC to prime when you start it up. Is the turbine mounted on the top or bottom of the frame. A picture would really help.

All my fuel and propane lines run on top of the engine and away from heat. The only line that comes close to heat is the lubrication line that goes to the gear box. It is covered with heat resistant material so it doesn't melt when it passes under the exhaust.

I'd love to see some pictures of your heli and how you have things routed.

If you look at the post "Cheap an Nice Looking Saddle Tanks" you will see pictures of my heli and the layout of fuel lines on top. You will also see the green heat resistant tubing on the bottom for the gear box lube line.

Lou

Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-13-2008 04:53 PM
 
 
Doug C
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern CA

Lou,

The setup is just like your Bergen, i.e. a standard wren, with the exception the airframe is a Predator.

the "heat shield" in question is the wrap around the center section between the turbine and the 2nd stage, nothing else along the bottom.

we didn't "see" raw kerosene, but it is my belief that because of the very smoky flame, dark yellow color, and where it was burning that the only way it could be, is from kerosene soaking the material coming from the egt sensor hole

Because of the way the Predator canopy wraps around the bottom, it is my belief that the intake from the turbine "pulled" the flame along the bottom side of the turbine to where it melted the lines as the entered the fod screen
04-13-2008 11:20 PM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

Doug,

I'd get air holes cut in the front of the canopy so you can get enough air. See the last pictures and you'll see them. I'd like to see his parameters. I'd also like to know if you are aware of the prime system.

Lou




Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-13-2008 11:56 PM
 
 
mpcorley71
New Heliman
Location: Suisun City, CA - USA

Nice setup

a very nice setup on that heli... I am using a century predator with the wren conversion. The real point of my question though was not so much about setup and hose routing, but the availability of small diameter fittings and braided hose. The practical reasons stem from plastic just melting to easily if any kind of "mishap" occurs, even the lubrication line with the heat resistant shielding was destroyed in my case, though the "fire" lasted less than 90 seconds from discovery to extinguishing (and yes, I have a fire extinguisher, per AMA regs). But the other factors are long term durability, and appearance. Braided line just looks cooler than funky green or clear tubing.


thanks for the feedback

-mike
04-14-2008 07:10 AM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

No, I have not run into any braided line that small. Will have to look at McMasters Carr and see if they carry any. It might be hard to find the lengths we need because I think these fitting are pre-made. Custom lines might just be cost prohibitive.

Lou

Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-14-2008 01:22 PM
 
 
bcook01
Senior Heliman
Location: central ontario

Try flame retardent TEFLON tubing over the existing tubing. You can find it in aviation sources in various diameters. Some shrink wrap tubing is flame retardent but it becomes rigid and that is not what is needed in this case. Any flame retardent jacket or sleeve of 1/4" or less would work.

fyi

Bob

You cannot afford to learn by your own mistakes.
04-14-2008 08:46 PM
 
 
human213
Senior Heliman
Location: malibu

I like

Mr. Wales' approach...



put a jetcat ecu and a kero start on that wren...



piss off everyone, and have something better simultaneously...





I love my kero start t5h, and will never pass gas again!



m

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
04-17-2008 10:13 AM
 
 
mpcorley71
New Heliman
Location: Suisun City, CA - USA

Alas... budgetary constraints require me to stay with the current setup ... I have it all "fixed" now, new lines and such... though I think I will still fab up some stainless steel hard-lines and wrap them in heat shield material, looks nicer and short of total disaster, should hold up for a very long time.


-mike
04-17-2008 10:20 AM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

Quote 
put a jetcat ecu and a kero start on that wren...

piss off everyone, and have something better simultaneously...

It's guys like you with smart a$$ comments that starts flaming posts. I'd rather save my batteries for flying rather then using them up starting my engine. It is a well known fact that Kero start is much harder on batteries.

Mikes problem is very rare and it still sounds like his parameters are either not set correctly or he filled the gas tank to full allowing liquid propane (it's just supposed to be gas) to get into the system or his propane valve is open too high.

Setting up the engine is the users responsibility and doing it correctly is essential.

All manufacturers have their pros and cons. For the record, Wren will have a kero start out soon.

Lou

Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-17-2008 01:50 PM
 
 
mpcorley71
New Heliman
Location: Suisun City, CA - USA

Lou,
My suspicion is that the propane was too open, it was adjusted for winter flying, cold and damp days. When I got the wet start, it was the first really warm day (80+) I had tried to fly on. I have since dialed it back about a turn and will give it a few bench starts to do the final tweaking. I haven't messed with the ecu settings other than to lower the max rpm.



-mike
04-17-2008 08:34 PM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

mpcorley71,

That's probably it! I think my gas opening is only 1 1/4 turns out so you might want to turn yours down. I was starting my turbine in 35 degree weather in the winter here without increasing the flow. There were a couple of times that it didn't start on the first sequence because of the cold, but it usually started fine on the second go. I've found my Wren to be very reliable and start ups are easy. So far the only thing I've done was change out the fuel pump to a Flight Works because I had a head speed issue that everyone thought was related to the pump. Guess what, it wasn't the pump. Once I got my throttle curve tuned properly, everything was fine.

Good luck and happy flying,
Lou

Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-17-2008 09:28 PM
 
 
coolice
Key Veteran
Location: Northamptonshire, England

Hey,

Yeah, first off there is nothing wrong with the WREN setup at all and it flies just as good if not better than the equivelant JetCat setup. More reliable to, but that comment will start a fire!

I think in all my starts with the WREN Predator I have only had one where some serious flames came out the exhaust due to there being to much gas in the engine.
On startup you will always hear a faint pop as the propane gas ignites, which raises the engines temperature in readiness for the kero pump start/run cycle.

From reading your posts I am also inclined to go with the view of there being just too much propane in the turbine on the second start up, either through a failed start, a faulty valve or even just having the flow rate of gas into the engine to high with the valve open to much.

One worrying part is that the heat shielding tape around your interstage caught alight? I was always under the impression that this material, which I have on my model is flame retardent or are you using another material not supplied by WREN?
.

Ian Contessa
Align Robbe SchluterUK Sponsored Flier
04-17-2008 11:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Doug C
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern CA

actually, it appears that the "fire" was on the inside surface of the "metal" between the metal and the retardant material, which leads me to again state my belief that the actual fire was from excess kerosene that had leaked into the heat wrap from the hole where the egt sensor sits.

the white stuff did not ignite and there are no heat discolorations on the middle section at all. stuff did its job, now all I have to do is replace it with some spare stuff I purchased from Sara a couple of months back.

We plan on putting some very high temp sleeving around the egt sensor lead (the old stuff did its job but the Festo tubing heat-deformed enough to become one with the green sleeving), and route the gas and kero lines to the topside of the installation, again inside a high-temp or teflon sleeving (for both protection and cosmetics)


Now that "summer" is here, recheck the propane valve setting and FLY (after I buy a new canopy)
04-18-2008 01:42 AM
 
 
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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Wet (hot) start with a wren
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